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Post by lubejob66 on Jul 7, 2007 16:31:40 GMT -5
Well, I have been reading this forum for over a month now and took everyone advise and when I got my new scooter, tore everything apart to make sure everything was tight and in its place. Replaced all of the fuel line hoses, new fuel filter, changed radiator fluid....etc. The scooter is terrific, have been driving it for 3 days now, have put 38 mile on it in 3 days, no problems, runs great, starts great......BUT, this afternoon went to the store and when I came out the battery was dead.......  when I was replacing everything, I read how its better if you replace the Chinese battery right away but I thought I would let it go for a while, but no, everyone is right, if you buy a new scooter go and ahead and replace the battery. The scooter is a MC-54 |
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Post by scooterollie on Jul 7, 2007 17:38:51 GMT -5
Contact your dealer!
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Post by Showme on Jul 7, 2007 17:52:24 GMT -5
Hey lubejob, congrats on the new scooter. I too have had a new MC 54 for about a week. Pretty much did as you. I am not really up on the scooter electrical systems and I can't make head nor tails of the elec. layout in the manual, but I did have problems. Mine was with over heating. Turns out that the fuse for the fan would come loose from the wire without really looking out of position in the fuse box. Made temp fix and all is good for now. I guess what I'm saying is, if you have fuses between your charging system and the battery, check them. Good luck with that new scoot. One more thing, check that kill switch position, it's a silly thing but it happens.
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Post by lubejob66 on Jul 7, 2007 18:09:51 GMT -5
Believe me, I received my scoot on Monday, stripped the whole scooter down til the frame. I took off all of the panels, rechecked all the wiring, tie wrapped all the connectors. I was really surprised how it was put together, after all the stories on the forum, I thought I was going to find a lot wrong, but minus a few loose clamps and rerouting some wiring, all and all put together very well. As far as over heating, its been running very cool, halfway between half mark and lower mark.
For being my first scooter, Just love it
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Post by mikeyscootin on Jul 7, 2007 23:18:54 GMT -5
my scooter also an mc 54 250 when i run it over 5500 rpms runs at just a shade over the half way mark up to hot.. any slower and it stays at the halfway mark or less....toward cold.. has never come close to any more than a smidge above the halfway mark.
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gwa88
Junior Dawg
Posts: 5
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Post by gwa88 on Jul 8, 2007 8:19:39 GMT -5
After reading these posts for a month or so I wanted to get in on the fun. I have a Viva Roadster 250 and have learned a great deal by reading posts regarding lights, fuel pumps, windshields, fuses etc. I have made numerous updates to my 250 but I am still having a charging problem.
My scoot will charge for about 2 minutes when cold but then the system shuts off like the reg kicks in and it won't charge again until cold. I can watch this occur because I installed a Voltage gauge on the right side of the dash area.
I think I have narrowed it down to the Reg/Rect. While researching the system I read about checking the stator output. I question why everyone is checking the stator wires to ground. If you check between legs you should get over 50v ac. I checked mine and have between 59 and 61v.
The question I have is what is the small finned unit mounted next to the reg/rect? It has a two wire connector but without a schematic I have no idea where the wires go or what it does. I know it has something to do with the charging circuit because when disconnected the sysem will not charge at all.
I thought I would post and see what everyone else thinks.
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Post by Gary on Jul 8, 2007 10:02:22 GMT -5
GWA - Welcome to the fun. You at least have the most interesting variant of the problem. I think the part you are talking about is this:  On the scooters georgia web site, its called a resistor heat sink. I have no idea what it does, although I think I read somewhere that it was a diode to prevent your battery from discharging through the charging sytem when the scooter wasn't running. In any case, since your system puts out for a short time when cold, then stops when hot, it certainly sounds like this could be the culprit. The part is orly $10 so its certainly worth a shot at replacing it. If you haven't bought from scooters georgia here is a link: www.scootersgeorgia.com/resi1.html. They are a great outfit to deal with. Gary |
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Post by stormy on Jul 8, 2007 11:45:31 GMT -5
I also have a new MC-54. When you get the new scooter shipped to you, you have to put battery acid in battery and charge it. After a day or so check your battery for acid level. They don't give you enought acid to fill the battery up, so you have to add more acid. You can get the acid from auto stores or where they sale batteries. My first scooter ran for about 4 or 5 days then battery went dead, checked acid, filled up battery, and charged , ran for 3 years and sill going strong. My new one, I checked after a day, and had to add acid, about 5 ozs.
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gwa88
Junior Dawg
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Post by gwa88 on Jul 8, 2007 11:46:06 GMT -5
Thanks Gary,
I am going out to the shop to see if I relocate this piece to a cooler area if that will make a diiference. I already have one coming from Family Motorsports where the scoot was purchased. Now that I know what it is all I have to do is find out what it does.
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Post by Showme on Jul 8, 2007 15:27:40 GMT -5
Just another person agreeing with stormy. I had already forgotten. It's been more then two days. When I filled my battery with the supplied acid, it didn't cover the plates inside. Read the battery paper work and the operaters manual. Finally found a paragraph that says to add distilled water to keep the level between the under and upper limits. Did so and haven't had any battery problems so far. It is difficult to understand their English. But you should hear my Chinese.
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Post by TeamTEOR on Jul 9, 2007 2:55:16 GMT -5
On the Baja SC50 it told me that I needed to fill the battery, and then let it stand open a while before closing it up. Then to charge it. It was a battery that I had to seal using a mallet, did your batteries come with screw caps?
Tom
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Post by A J on Jul 9, 2007 12:14:26 GMT -5
. I have a Viva Roadster 250 and have learned a great deal by reading posts regarding lights, fuel pumps, windshields, fuses etc. I have made numerous updates to my 250 but I am still having a charging problem. My scoot will charge for about 2 minutes when cold but then the system shuts off like the reg kicks in and it won't charge again until cold. I can watch this occur because I installed a Voltage gauge on the right side of the dash area. I think I have narrowed it down to the Reg/Rect. While researching the system I read about checking the stator output. I question why everyone is checking the stator wires to ground. If you check between legs you should get over 50v ac. I checked mine and have between 59 and 61v. The question I have is what is the small finned unit mounted next to the reg/rect? It has a two wire connector but without a schematic I have no idea where the wires go or what it does. I know it has something to do with the charging circuit because when disconnected the system will not charge at all. I thought I would post and see what everyone else thinks. You seem to be pretty knowledgeable about electrical systems, so I thought I would try to help you with a few answers and some trouble-shooting procedures. (color references your questions [ also in color]). The stator output must be referenced to ground or the rectifiers in the regulator can't do their job of converting the AC from the stator to DC current, which is referenced to ground. IF after going through this testing procedure, you have voltage between the stator legs but not to ground, I would suspect an intermittent stator ground. That two wire thing is a rectifier diode which lets the charging current pass through to the battery but isolates the lighting system from the battery so the lights are on only when the engine is running. I would check the voltage on each side of it when the battery is being charged and it is not getting charged. DO NOT START THIS TESTING PROCEDURE WITH A DEAD BATTERY that you have jumped to start the scooter. Check your battery voltage at the battery terminals before you start the scooter. It should be a minimum of 12.6 volts with NOTHING turned ON. The battery voltage should show up on one side of the diode and the other side should have a higher voltage from the charging system. The voltage difference should be no more than approx. 1 volt. The voltage drop across the diode will vary depending on the current flowing through it. There should be a minimum of 0.6 volts difference. If the difference is more than 1.3 volts it is probably defective. If you have battery voltage on one side and nothing or a very low voltage on the other side of the diode, I would suspect the charging system. The next thing to check is the regulator. See if you have voltage coming out of it. About 13 to 15 volts DC. If not, then see if you have voltage going into it. If it is defective, the input voltage may be AC rather than DC as the regulator has the rectifiers in it that convert the AC from the stator to DC. If you have AC going to the regulator and low output from it. I would check for a faulty ground first and then replace it if necessary. If nothing is going into the regulator, check for stator output at the time when the battery is not being charged. You did mentioned you had stator output, but I don't know when you checked that; if it was charging the battery at the time or not. I have a Viva250 and the dealer replaced the stator telling me that it was heat sensitive and would die when the engine got warm. I had a similar situation to yours. You MAY have the same condition, but I would check each of the components as I have outlined here. If you have output from a component and that output is not showing up at the input to the next component, look for bad wiring connections between them. I hope this helps. It may be a little less expensive than using the shotgun method of replacing parts. Replacing the stator can be quite time consuming. If you have any questions, I am glad to answer them, if I can. A J |
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Post by Gary on Jul 9, 2007 12:39:15 GMT -5
AJ -
Good explanation. Did you replace the stator yourself? If so, can you explain how to do it? I think I'm facing that prospect ...
Thanks!
Gary
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Post by Nopster_H on Jul 9, 2007 14:32:48 GMT -5
AJ,
I'm also looking to replace the stator, would apprciate the procedure/tips/trick. Also anyone found a place to get the stator ? Both oregonvintage.com & partsforscooters.com are 'out-of-stock'. How about stator from other Honda soocters or motorcycles ? Many 'used' ones one eBay look similar to the CFMOTO's stator. Your opinion is much repsected.
Best Regards
Nop
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Post by Gary on Jul 9, 2007 14:48:15 GMT -5
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Post by A J on Jul 9, 2007 14:51:22 GMT -5
AJ - Good explanation. Did you replace the stator yourself? If so, can you explain how to do it? I think I'm facing that prospect ... Thanks! Gary I am sorry guys. I didn't do the repair myself. The dealer did it. He got the part from Roketa. I imagine the same part goes into most GY6 250's and probably the Honda part will fit since this is a clone engine.......... The time remark came from the dealer telling me he was charging me $235 for the repair, not the part.  If I was stuck for a stator, and SURE it was the problem, I would take it out and take it with me when I visited a local Honda store to match it up with something they have in stock. I would have installed it myself, but the dealer doesn't want me messing with the scoot (warranty)...........  He doesn't trust that I know what I'm doing, but that's another story for another time. A J |
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gwa88
Junior Dawg
Posts: 5
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Post by gwa88 on Jul 9, 2007 15:53:18 GMT -5
AJ
Thanks for the explanation. I will follow the steps as you outlined and see if I can pinpoint the problem. I have not done the pre post tests that you suggested but was planning to this weekend. It would be great to have a wiring diagram but I guess I'll get through it one way or another. Thanks again for the insight.
Jerry
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Post by Gary on Jul 9, 2007 16:54:32 GMT -5
The stator looks something like this:  |
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gwa88
Junior Dawg
Posts: 5
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Post by gwa88 on Jul 10, 2007 18:17:48 GMT -5
Okay Gary here's what I got for test results. After the scooter warms up for two to three min it stops charging.
Stator 60v ac between legs charging or not
Stator 6v ac to ground each leg charging or not
Voltage reg 14v dc on red wire which becomes a yellow wire after the connector from the wiring harness, charging or not.
Diode 14 v dc on the yellow wire when charging 13.3v dc when not charging
Diode 13.9 v dc on the red wire when charging 12.4 v dc when not charging.
Any thoughts?
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Post by A J on Jul 11, 2007 2:23:06 GMT -5
Okay Gary here's what I got for test results. After the scooter warms up for two to three min it stops charging. Stator 60v ac between legs charging or not Stator 6v ac to ground each leg charging or not Voltage reg 14v dc on red wire which becomes a yellow wire after the connector from the wiring harness, charging or not. Diode 14 v dc on the yellow wire when charging 13.3v dc when not charging Diode 13.9 v dc on the red wire when charging 12.4 v dc when not charging. Any thoughts? The 14 volts and 13.9 volts when charging doesn't look right. I would expect at least 0.6 volts difference, not 0.1 volt. Unless you have something putting a heavy load on the battery, the 1.5 volt difference when "not charging" is too high. But, 13.3 volts on the yellow wire when not charging, would point to either a heavy load on the battery side or a bad connection. I lean toward a bad connection between the regulator and the diode since you say the regulator puts out 14 volts all the time. If the Red from the regulator changes to Yellow at the diode, you must have a connector in that line. On the other hand, if the battery is internally shorting when the charging voltage comes up for a few minutes, that could cause the problem too. That would look like a heavy load on the charging system. What is the battery voltage after you shut down ? Are all of the lights working properly while charging and not charging? Can you measure the current between the diode and the battery ? Unfortunately, the schematics I have do not show the Diode at all. Try checking those voltages with the meter set on AC just to see if the regulator is fully rectifying the AC to DC all the time. A J |
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Post by Gary on Jul 11, 2007 10:23:06 GMT -5
Jerry, AJ:
The extremely intriguing thing about Jerry's problem is the regular time period for the scoot to stop charging (~2 minutes). That would seem to be consistent with heat up of hunk of metal (think heat sink), vs a wire. I can't imagine its a battery problem, since so many have had the same issue (with presumably a variety of batteries).
I have no experience, and defer to others, but here is what I think could be happening. Please take this all with a grain of salt.
The diode is supposed to allow extra current from the stator/regulator to go to the battery, while at the same time preventing the battery from powering the lights when the scooter is off. So it seems that perhaps the diode is developing an internal open condition after heating up a bit. That would not affect the lights or spark, but would prevent charging current going to the battery.
Other people have had a lights always on condition that was due to a reversed diode. Everything else worked OK. So I'm thinking it may be OK to bypass (jumper) the diode as a check. If the diode were jumpered, you'd guarantee that there would be charging current to the battery. The lights would stay on even if the scooter were not running, but at least this would be a check of the diode.
There probably is some other simple way to test the diode, like hooking it up to a battery in series with a light bulb. Hooked up one way the bulb should not light up. Hooked up with the opposite polarity, the bulb should light. Then, if my theory on the diode is right, once the diode heats up, I'd expect the light to go out.
This is all probably BS, but it makes some sense to me. I'm sufficinetly intrigued with all of this that I'm going to take the morning off and run some tests on my scoot.
Cheers,
Gary
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Post by Gary on Jul 11, 2007 12:25:22 GMT -5
Well, I tested my stator output. Seems like I have just under 12V AC across each of the legs. I assume this means defective stator? Also, measured the resistance; about 1.1 ohms across each leg. Here is a poho of the stator housing  Looks like replacing the stator will be a chore. I may just live with the problem for a while. |
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Post by lubejob66 on Jul 11, 2007 21:59:02 GMT -5
Hey Guys, Sorry no reply in a couple of days, when I started this thread I left for vacation and just got back tonight. As far as my scooter, I filled the battery acid up all the way, when I first got the battery because here in the forum I already read that the battery acid that comes with the scooter isn't enough, so I bought some before it came. The funny thing is, when I tore apart my scooter when it first came, I noticed that there was a rectifier diode tie wrapped to a hose hooked up to the connector going to the scooter. I thought this was very strange and noticed there was another diode rectifier bolted to my frame, but was not hooked up to anything.......I thought maybe the factory hooked up the spare one tie wrapped to the hose. I disconnected the wire going to the diode tie wrapped and hooked it up to the one mounted to my frame......I now have a spare??? But now Iam wanting to know, maybe the factory realized the one hooked to the frame was bad and instead of replacing it just hooked up a new one and tie wrapped it to a hose...  ? LOL Also, sent a e-mail to allnewsports.com about the battery before I left for vacation and this is the response I got back..... Yes, the battery that comes with the bike is just a starter battery. After so many uses it will no longer hold the charge and you will need to replace the battery. The batter is a 12 volt 9amp or 7 amp battery. Jeff W. So I will be troubleshooting the battery thing tomorrow any suggestions on this diode thing will be greatly appreciated. |
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Post by TeamTEOR on Jul 12, 2007 4:30:23 GMT -5
It doesn't make sense as to why there is a second rectifier. To the china man that would represent a waste in cash. Very interesting indeed.
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gwa88
Junior Dawg
Posts: 5
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Post by gwa88 on Jul 12, 2007 5:55:04 GMT -5
Gary,
I'm with you. I think the heat sink on the diode is getting to hot, possibly defective or just mounted in too hot a spot, the curious thing is that I always have over 13 volts going into the diode but the output voltage drops after 2 min. Also the voltage at the stator does not change, the lights don't dim, it runs fine and the voltage at the red wire on the regulator is always over 13v. Moving the diode has no effect so it probably is defective. I wonder if Honda uses a better one?
Jerry
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Post by lubejob66 on Jul 12, 2007 7:47:59 GMT -5
When I was going over my scooter when I first got it and found the diode tie wrapped to a hose, I couldn't believe that they did this. But then, when I was trying to find a place to mount it, thats when I found the other diode mounted to the frame and it wasn't hooked up to any connections. I first thought maybe there was 2 of these and one didn't get hooked up, but after searching for another wire and couldn't find one, I realized the wire to the diode tie wrapped to the hose was the only one. So I disconnected that one and hooked it up to the one mounted to the frame. Now Iam thinking the one hooked up to the frame is bad and they hooked up a new one but didn't want to remove the old one. The scooter had 1 mile on it when I got it, so maybe they test run it in the factory and thats where they realized the one on the bike was bad. So maybe, with me hooking up the frame mounted one, thats why my battery went dead??
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Post by lubejob66 on Jul 12, 2007 9:18:58 GMT -5
Well, I went out to troubleshoot my scooter this morning. I charged the battery up over night and hooked it back up again. It started up and when I hooked up my alternator tester to the scooter after it started it wasn't showing a charge. I looked at the diode resistor and the connector going to it was melted! I plugged in the spare diode I have and still no voltage on my alternator tester, checked all of the fuses because of the connector being melted, but they where all good. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
Thank you
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Post by Showme on Jul 13, 2007 16:49:24 GMT -5
First, I gotta tell you. I had said that my battery was doing well so far. Well today it was leaking acid between the side of the case and the cap. So much for cheap batteries. On the other problem, I had a car that acted like that. Turns out the alt. I had repaired had a direct short between the diode plates. Fried the wires as soon as elect. was applied. You might use an ohm meter to check you diode. Should have resistance in one direction and none in other. Diode disconnected of course. Hope this might help.
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Post by lubejob66 on Jul 13, 2007 23:36:04 GMT -5
Well, I replaced the diode on my scooter and it seems to have fixed my charging system problem. The battery was reading 13.2 volts without the scooter running, then when I run the scooter it goes to 14.2 volts and as I throttle up the volts go up. Its been 3 days now and the battery is still fully charged.
Have 75 miles on scooter and it is running better and better each day. For being my first scooter, Iam so glad I went with the MC-54 scooter.
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Post by TeamTEOR on Jul 14, 2007 6:48:19 GMT -5
Showme, I hope you were able to neutralize that acid before it did any major damage. Baking Soda is a good start.
Awesome Lube, glad to hear it!
Tom
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when I was replacing everything, I read how its better if you replace the Chinese battery right away but I thought I would let it go for a while, but no, everyone is right, if you buy a new scooter go and ahead and replace the battery.
He doesn't trust that I know what I'm doing, but that's another story for another time.
? LOL