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Post by stiv625 on Feb 28, 2013 17:33:31 GMT -5
I was thinking of just getting a used 150 b/c honestly I went through more hassle getting my brand new ATM-50 tuned properly and working out the kinks than I bargained for. The kid I sold it to got a hell of a deal, somebody had already went through the trouble of setup, break-in, tuning, adjusting, fixing, etc, I probably sold that scoot at the prime of it's life. I was really excited about the Aprilia I looked at b/c I had never owned a European car or bike. But the potential problems stemming from the recall items were too serious. To me there's no point in buying a 10-yr old $2000 top-tier brand if there's a good chance you'll have to tear apart the bottom end of the motor to rebuild sooner than later. Now I've got my Mercedes C220 to satisfy my Euro-fetish, and keep my wallet hostage, so I'll probably just pickup a used 150cc for $300-500 off craigslist. For what it's worth I appreciate your frustrations w/ the EVO if it saves me any Since I have the Merc I will seldom take my 150 above 50-55 MPH. Hard to tell if you'd still recommend the PX150... I still think I'd be better served for the investment with an older model.
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Post by prodigit on Mar 1, 2013 1:19:21 GMT -5
Well, considering that a PX150 goes for $650 (+199 shipping), that's $850 on your doorstep; brand new... I don't know.... Second hand scoots have the same probs, if not more, than the new ones, only, they have more miles on them, that means less miles to go before scooter armageddon..
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Post by stiv625 on Mar 1, 2013 9:58:44 GMT -5
Yeah I know but then it's like well... at $850, it's only a slight increment up into the threshold of "middle-tier" brands. For example I'm looking at a Puma Speedo 150 for as low as $1200, 12 mo / 6k mi warranty, good quality materials and mostly LED lights. There's even a gently used Bintelli 2-stroke with a 90cc BBK for around $1000 near me. I mean hell I was about to spend closer to $2000 on a 10-yr old machine. But now that I have another car reliability isn't a huge issue, I can afford some downtime if it saves big bucks. I guess it's a balance of whether I want a more reliable car ($$$ into repairs/maintenance) or scooter ($$$ goes to newer/better brand). Your tale of the 40 vacuum lines concerns me lol, had a factory supercharged Mazda a long time ago that had 21 ft of vacuum lines that liked to leak......
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Post by prodigit on Mar 1, 2013 13:23:10 GMT -5
The vacuum lines are the least of my worries to be honest. They're quite easily replaced. It's the bolts you can't see, or don't know they actually rattled loose, causing a leak that causes permanent damage, that I'm worried about. Also, the fact that I'd have to peel off the entire body to do the valve adjustment, or unless if I've done it before, know exactly what I'm doing, I might have the slight chance of being lucky enough to do the valve adjustment with just removing the front window.
Not worth the trouble. With the PX150 there's at least a slight chance that you'd have a simpler, and more reliable bike. But then again, if you can get second hand scoots for that cheap! Why not? Over here, the only scoots for sale that are not 50cc, are the zuma's and Honda silverwings. High price ~$3000 (like new price), and not particularly what I'm looking for.
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Post by stiv625 on Mar 1, 2013 13:47:25 GMT -5
There are a ton of em. There's one for $350 that had the motor swapped with a crate motor 1000 mi ago but now doesn't run b/c of likely carb issues. There are a lot that don't run and people don't want to tinker. I want something easy to work on like my ATM50. I'll probably just throw one of the non-runners in my brothers Jeep and throw a new carb & BBK on it and call it a day w/ less than $500 invested.
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Post by prodigit on Mar 1, 2013 20:19:39 GMT -5
On most cars I've ever owned, I did ~1mi per $1 I invested in them. On my scoots, I get an average of ~2mi per $1 I invested in them. Good investments I'd say. Leave the car at home, less miles on the car, means less wear, less garage and repair and maintenance, and that means more money in the pocket. The perfect scoot should give you a ratio of 10mi / $1 invested.
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Post by stiv625 on Mar 1, 2013 21:39:19 GMT -5
Really? A $1/mi for a car? That sounds awful. Well, with tires and oil changes and fuel and insurance and taxes... maybe. I'll have to number crunch some more. No no, that can't be right. I've driven 200-300k mi in my life mostly in cars I own and I certainly haven't made a quarter mill in my life hahaha. For example, my '02 Dodge Neon I've put 12k mi on since buying in Sept '12, paid $850 for it, $160 for lightly used tires, did 2 oil changes myself for $40, couple parts replaced $250, reg / tax / tag = $200, ins $38/mo * 6 mo = $228, 12k mi / 27 mpg = 444.44 gal * say $3.65/gal avg = ~$1622 for a grand total of... $3350 for 12k mi, and that assumes the car will disappear tomorrow and I won't resell it for anything (I expect to get $1000 this week for it). So worst case 3.58 mi / $1, I'm thinking with resale it's more like 5.1 mi / $1. A more half-assed estimate of my Jeep gets around 3.7-4.0 mi / $1. I've gotten 50k mi out of cars before with nothing but tires & oil and almost no depreciation. That's your 10 mi / $1. For my '12 Tao Tao ATM50... bought brand new for $750 from a dealer 100% assembled ready to ride home. Replaced/upgraded carb, jets, CVT weights, fluids, belt. We'll say $100 in parts. Sold it with 3300 km I think. So about 2250 mi. I got between 85 and 105 mpg. We'll say 90 to be on the safe side. So 25 gal @ $4/gal (93-oct), $100. Sold it for $450. Equals 4.5 mi / $1. The Neon wins!!! But that's an old beater car with virtually no depreciation vs. a brand new scooter I sold just months later for a huge loss. Just operating costs are obviously 3-4 times less on the scooter. Just had to narl all that out to see for myself Thanks for bringing that up, I'm going to try to track this more closely now.
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Post by stiv625 on Mar 1, 2013 21:44:12 GMT -5
It's also worth noting I've gone the other way too. My Nissan 300ZX and my last Honda Accord were both $2000-3000 in expense for maybe a couple thousand miles and resold for next to nothing. They were probably .5 mi / $1. Even if a Chinese scoot throws a crank bearing on you and you throw it in a dumpster you'll still never do that bad.
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Post by prodigit on Mar 2, 2013 1:47:10 GMT -5
I've had a couple of bad purchases on cars, spent between $2k and $3k on a pair of cars, I never got more than 3k miles on. With a new car, the chances are I'm going to ride a lot more than 1mi/$ The new car costed me $20k all in(taxes, tag, car, dealerfee,...), and so far I've done ~4k miles; I expect the car to cost me $2000 more in it's lifetime (gas not included), and give me at least $80k more miles before selling it, that'll be 4mi/$; count gas with that, and I'll get @35mpg, and $4.5/gal @88k mi, I'd get over 2500 gal of fuel, or $11314 on fuel, that'll come down to $33.000 for 88k miles or 2.66mi/$ (that is, if no one steals the car, or get in an accident with it)
I don't think a lot of people realize the financial burden of a car, just on gasoline. Having a non-eco car, doing 25MPG average, and 100k miles on the car, at $4/gal, gives you 4000 gallons of fuel, or $16k just on gasoline!
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Post by stiv625 on Mar 2, 2013 2:34:22 GMT -5
The fuel difference is certainly significant especially with our oil prices how they are now (and will only get worse). I've studied the lifetime fuel savings equation pretty extensively as both my parents have or had gas/electric cars. $16k for 100k mi for an "average car" vs $8k for a 50 MPG hybrid seems like a no-brainer. Most ppl get to 100k in 5-8 yrs, so $2-3k/yr in fuel for the 25mpg. But in those 5-8 yrs... depreciation, higher initial cost, and in hybrid's case eventual battery replacement usually outweighs the fuel savings unless you keep the vehicle for quite a long time or are fortunate with reliability.
Depreciation killed my cost ratio on my Tao Tao but like you mentioned earlier, problem-free used Chinese scoots don't really exist. The key is that 3rd variable. Time/hassle/stress/effort. I think my friend and I will easily beat 10 mi/dollar on my '09 beaten up BBK'd Tao Tao by the end of the year but we've already dumped so much time & effort just to get it running. Just $225 total invested in the scooter, BBK / "power pack", and a few odds and ends. But a brand new $3,000 Honda would yield at least 5 mi/dollar within a couple years and be hopefully darn near close to hassle-free.
You're right though, I definitely need to be better this year about taking the scooter anytime I'm going somewhere alone in fair weather and without major cargo. The fuel cost isn't what worries me with the Mercedes, it's the wear and tear from the miles which will equate to repair costs.
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Post by prodigit on Mar 2, 2013 6:12:20 GMT -5
Ok, this is 6AM ranting time; half awake and just giving my 2ct on some topics:
On my chevy Cruze, the avg repair cost per year, is estimated to be $1200. (according to these car research analyst websites). Seeing I do about 6-8k miles per year on my car, in 10 years, that will only be $12k. The majority of which will happen after 50k miles, and more after 75k miles. At 80k miles I have spent ~$9k on fuel, and probably the same on repairs.
I'm just saying that for a new car, repair and maintenance should be very low in the first 50-60k miles; much much lower than what spent on gasoline.
General trend for cars should be something like this: After 75k miles perhaps equal, and after 100k miles repair bills get bigger than gasoline.
It doesn't pay to get a hybrid car (electric), not only because of the battery, but also because of the extra electrical components that can break.
The day a dashboard and chip replacement is competitively priced, to something like $150, and an electric generator/motor is replaced with an aftermarket $300-500 generator (for electric braking and acceleration), then perhaps electric cars 'might' be something to look at; eventhough I don't think prices of LI batteries will go down any time soon.
For now, I'm convinced, the best car you can buy, is one that fits your driving style. Since I don't drive a lot per year, for me, a Chevy Spark would be an excellent buy. Great fuel economy, cheap car, low est. annual maintenance (~$800/yr); that is, if you're willing to give up some luxuries; as the car isn't the most comfy, and is only affordable in the base model. Of course, if I want to go cheaper, I'd perhaps get a Japanese or Korean scooter. But I'm not too fond about a CVT on a high power scooter. Anything beyond 150cc should not have a CVT with belt like we know. The CVT in my car actually had something similar as a metal chain as belt. But rubber can't handle 250+CC's very well.
So what's a good, and affordable scooter? Probably a Korean model, with fuel injection.
If you're going to buy a (new) scooter, there are 2 ways to go (for me): 1- Get a cheap, low cost, non-complex, no-frills chinese scoot, that you can work on,and do everything maintenance on. The ATM-50 is a great example of one like that. Wished they had it in 150cc size. or 2- get a reliable, japanese or Korean, fuel injected scoot, where you can work on, but still have dealer or mechanic support for the more difficult tasks (like valve adjustments, and the likes).
I've gone the road of cheap chinese scoots, and for the moment probably only would recommend the 50cc scoots (namely TaoTao ATM50) or get a quality 150cc scoot (I wish they had em in 100-125cc version, for better fuel economy).
Strange thing I see, is that a 150cc scoot gets ~70MPG. A 50cc gets ~100MPG a 75-100cc BBK gets ~68MPG
I can only conclude that a BBK is less efficient, than a stock 100-125cc sized engine.
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Post by stiv625 on Mar 2, 2013 10:41:20 GMT -5
Awww don't sound too enthusiastic about your Cruze, my mom traded in her '07 Civic Hybrid on a '12 Cruze LS last year. Ignoring the numbers for a second.... it was just dang worth it. That Civic had so many problems and pissed us off so much and she just loves her Cruze. Life is too short not to be happy. It'll take time to save her money but she plans on keeping it as long as mechanically feasible. Honda wouldn't even stand behind their hybrid battery with a car only 5 yrs / 47k mi into it's 8 yr / 80k hybrid warranty. The car not only went from ~45 mpg to ~30 on the dead/dying battery, it was borderline unsafe to drive (a 1.3L mated to a CVT is NOT very capable of moving a 3500lb car on it's own). She didn't get the Cruze LT/Turbo model for similar reasons. Although the 1.4L Turbo car gets significantly better mileage than the 1.8L NA, she had a bad experience with repairing a factory boosted car before and didn't want to play that out again. My dad is going to have a lot harder of a time beating her on miles/dollars on his twice the MSRP new Volt and his commute even allows him to hardly use the gasoline engine. She'll probably get to 100k mi without any major repair money (she got the extended warranty). But that's $20k for the car & financing, free oil changes & maintenance till 75k, hoping to keep getting 27 mpg @ 3.70/gal.... $13k in fuel. That's at 3.3 mi / $1 for the first 100k. The 2nd 100k should be able to beat 5 mi / $1 if the transmission holds up since the car will be paid off.
I was thinking last night I really ought to go ahead and pony up and get an EFI scooter. Not only will it save fuel but the carbs on these Chinese scooters are so friggin' screwy... I'm so tired of messing with them. Hell I'll even do the Ecotrons EFI kit if I have to. Water cooled would be dope too but probably not necessary on a 150cc. The only stock EFI 150cc bike I know that isn't a brand new model is the CF Moto E-Charm, it's water cooled too. I could only find one in FL posted a month ago that doesn't run.... go figure. But I could buy one of those cheap 150cc that don't run off CL here and put an EFI kit on. Would have a 150cc EFI for under $700.
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Post by prodigit on Mar 2, 2013 19:37:16 GMT -5
I'm pretty happy about my cruze. The only problems I have with it, is the auto enricher (or something) is set too high. The engine idle for the first 30 seconds to a minute, is at 1,5k RPM, making the car jerk forward as soon as it gets into gear (probably bad for the clutch).
That, the harder seats, the plastic interior (nothing different from all the other brands, in fact, the Cruze's interior looks just like a Hyundai Elantra or something). And the bad functioning media center buttons (fast forward/rewind don't work well at all).
Aside from that, it's seemingly a solid car to me.
I rode in the 1,8L NA, as well as the sonic, and I have to say the 1,4l Turbo feels nicer! Acceleration starts kicking in between 1500 and 2000 RPM. I found the Sonic 1,8L was the same as my Dodge Neon that I sold before. The Dodge Neon had a 2.0 Liter engine, 133BHP, the Sonic has 138BHP. The 1,4Turbo has 148BHP, gives you an edge over the other cars.
The MPG numbers are a lot better on the turbo models compared to the NA models. In fact, the cruze, under the same riding conditions, though being a lot larger and heavier than the Spark, has better overall gas mileage. In the city less, but it gains a lot on roads where one can ride continuously. It peaks at ~70MPG @ 35-40MPH; which is pretty freaking amazing, for a car! The 42MPG, for the eco, is on the highway, with AC on, riding 60MPH. If you go 55MPH, and turn off AC, it averages ~50MPG.
That's about as much as my honda VT750.
For that reason I'm less impressed with my 68MPG rating on my 150 EVO; and had hoped it would perhaps increase to 75+MPG, preferably 80+MPG. I probably will be able to get there with heavier rollers.
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