|
|
Post by ransome on Dec 28, 2007 1:19:46 GMT -5
I have a 2007 Tank Urban Classic.63 miles.Was running fine, now it won't start.Turns over well.Tried no throttle, full throttle, couple of twists ect. Thought it might be flooded, let it sit overnight, still it won't catch. Let me know what to try next..thanks  |
|
|
|
Post by swampsniper on Dec 28, 2007 3:51:47 GMT -5
Make sure the kill switch is in the run position. If that isn't it you'll need to check for spark. Easy way is with a spare sparkplug, put the plug wire on top of the plug, hold the metal plug body against a metal engine part, and crank the engine. You should see a strong blue spark jump the plug gap. If that's OK squirt a little bit, not much, of starter fluid in the air intake. It will go through the filter. If the engine tries to start, it isn't getting fuel.
Pull the seat bucket so you can reach the carb. Remove the fuel line where it enters the left side of the carb. When you crank the engine fuel should come out of the fuel line. Check this out before digging deeper.
|
|
|
|
Post by ransome on Dec 28, 2007 19:02:56 GMT -5
Ok, I unplugged the kill switch, no luck.Then I removed the rear body to get to the air cleaner assembly, they don't make it very easy to change the air filter.Shot some starter fluid into the intake and the scooter started right up, it would only run as long as the stater fluid held out.Next I unplugged the fuel line right before the fuel filter(see photo)and ran the starter, I expected fuel to shoot out but nothing came out.Allright what now, the fuel pump or vacuum lines? Let me know...  |
|
|
|
Post by RandyT on Dec 28, 2007 20:03:46 GMT -5
I hate to ask this question...but is the fuel tank full~?
|
|
|
|
Post by scooterollie on Dec 28, 2007 21:18:34 GMT -5
Ransome;
While in there, replace the stock fuel filter with a good quality small engine filter. I like NAPA Gold #3011. The O.E. filters are too small, IMHO, and are known to come unglued and leak.
It does seem as though you are not getting fuel to the carb. Remove the fuel line from the carb. and crank the engine. If nothing is coming out after several tries, remove the gas tank cap. Sometimes they don't vent properly and a vacuum forms in the tank preventing gas from being drawn through the pump to the engine. Crank the engine again.
The silver thing in your pic to the left of the filter is either a vacuum tap or fuel pump. If the tank is fully above the carb., it is usually a tap - a vacuum operated shut off valve. In either case, the pump or tap have been known to fail and not pump or allow gas to the carb. Trace the gas line from the tank on down and remove it to see if fuel will freely run from the line. If so, you know fuel is getting to the tap/pump. Try to bypass the tap/pump, feeding gas from the tank directly to the carb. - if the tank is above the carb. See if the scoot will start and run.
Let us know what happens.
|
|
|
|
Post by ransome on Dec 28, 2007 21:33:29 GMT -5
I hate to ask this question...but is the fuel tank full~? Yes it is full... |
|
|
|
Post by RandyT on Dec 28, 2007 22:04:41 GMT -5
I hate to ask this question...but is the fuel tank full~? Yes it is full... Sorry just had to ask. They do have a service manual you can download at www.tank-sports.com/support.html Good luck. |
|
|
|
Post by earlwb on Dec 29, 2007 22:37:44 GMT -5
Well, first you need to determine if the vaccuum operated fuel pump is working or not.
You will need to fabricate a small test fuel tank out of something you can hook a fuel line from the carb to. Then try it again. I assume the fuel tank is below the engine under the floorboards or something like that.
Then if the fuel pump is not working, try blocking off all the vaccuum lines except for one line going to the fuel pump and to the carb itself, then try it again. If it works like that, you have a vaccuum leak or something taking too much vaccuum from the fuel pump to operate correctly.
Sometimes the fuel filter has too much resistance to fuel and can make it seem the fuel pump is bad too.
|
|
|
|
Post by ransome on Dec 30, 2007 5:15:08 GMT -5
I made a makeshift gravity feed tank and plugged it in right before the fuel filter so I could test that as well.The scooter started right up and ran great, although it ran at high rpm I am guessing from bypassing the vacuum pump. I spent a lot of time looking at the vacuum connections, they all seem tight with no kinks.
I guess I will try blocking off the vacuum lines and see what happens there.Any other suggestions...?
|
|
|
|
Post by earlwb on Dec 30, 2007 10:28:43 GMT -5
What bothers me is the fuel filter seems to be on the output from the fuel pump. I would assume you would have had the filter on the intake to the fuel pump.
A vaccum fuel pump uses a diaprham (maybe a spring to help too) on the inside to pump fuel through a pair of one way valves. When you apply a vaccum the diaphram compresses squeezing fuel through the outlet valve. At a predermined point a port is opened allowing air back in with a spring to help push the diaphram back out again. The outward movement sucks fuel into the chamber.
Anyway it is possible that some debris caused a one way valve to stick open causing the pump to quit working right. From the pic it looks like one could disassemble the pump to check it out too.
Since we have had a number of people that have had the carbuerator diaphram get a hole in it or become torn, it would not surprise me if the diaphram in the fuel pump had the same problem.
But it seems more likely one or both of the one way valves are stuck open for some reason.
The one way valves are typically a small ball bearing over a conical opening, so some debris getting in there can cause them to not work correctly. Although they could use a thin rubber flapper for a valve, I don't see that as being a long lasting valve.
|
|
|
|
Post by tortoise on Dec 30, 2007 12:29:21 GMT -5
The scooter started right up and ran great, although it ran at high rpm On a cold start-up that is normal . . see fuel bystarter valve. Advisory to others . . ransome also posted this same topic on Scooter Forum Online. |
|
|
|
Post by earlwb on Dec 30, 2007 14:31:38 GMT -5
Fuel in the vaccum line?
Yeah it has been seen before when the diaphram develops a tear or hole in it. It usually floods out the engine though. Unless it is a pinhole leak, then the engine runs unusually rich and can be a bear to troubleshoot.
|
|
|
|
Post by funderp47 on Dec 30, 2007 23:14:23 GMT -5
Sorry Earlwb, I didn't give enough info. I was actually wondering if AIR passed through into the vacuum line due to the pumping action. It would seem it might due to the cycling in the pump and I guess a little outside air would be introduced. If so, it must be insignificant.
Good point about a ruptured diaphragm. It would seem the vacuum line would pull the fuel to the vacuum port on the engine and richen the mixture. That could be a real headscratcher.
|
|
|
|
Post by ransome on Dec 31, 2007 0:24:38 GMT -5
Ok, it runs now.Here is what I did..I hooked my makeshift gravity feed to the fuel valve(using the nipple that went to the gas tank) then when it was running well I switched from the gravity feed to the gas tank line, to my surprise it stayed running. Maybe the valve needed to be primed, or there was a bubble or dirt in the valve.But thanks again for all the help and support on this problem.Without forums like this, I never would have bought a Chinese scooter. But with all the big brains here, hopefully we can keep the scooters running.
One more thing though, I found a second nipple coming out of the gas tank( on the opposite side), maybe it was a vent.There was no hose on it and some gas was dribbling out, I put a hose on it and run it under the scooter, let me know what you think..
|
|
|
|
Post by raymond1024 on Feb 6, 2008 18:52:37 GMT -5
Tank is known to be a good company before but as for the past few years ive heard a lot about their quality. I would be inclined about buying a Tank but thats just my feeling. Sorry to hear you are having issues with it.
|
|
|
|
Post by ransome on Mar 10, 2008 4:13:02 GMT -5
Ok, now my scooter is doing the same thing again, not starting.If I attach a gravity fed gas line to the fuel valve, the scooter starts right up and I can actually swap the gravity fed line for the line line running to the fuel tank while it is still running and it will stay running and start and stop all day fine.Next day , it will start up fine and run for about 4-5 minutes before slowly dying and not starting again.Could it be the fuel valve is defective and needs replaced, maybe a small puncture in the membrane..How much is a fuel valve for a Tank 150 classic??  |
|
|
|
Post by earlwb on Mar 10, 2008 5:29:19 GMT -5
Well you pretty well isolated the problem to the fuel pump. That looks like a vacuum operated fuel pump to me.
But since it works OK after you get it running, that implies something else is happening with it.
One thing is the fuel pump appears to be too high, it should be below the carb almost even with the cylinder. It doesn't suck fuel very well, but it pushes fuel better.
The other thing is it may not be getting enough vacuum from the engine to work correctly.
So you could have a vacuum or intake manifold leak which is weakening the vacuum from the engine. On a 150cc engine there isn't much vacuum anyway.
I would try plugging or blocking off the vacuum line going to the front PAIR system leaving only the fuel pump and carb getting vacuum. Then see what happens.
You have a second vacuum line going to something on there too, plug or block it off as well.
You could still have a cracked or leaking intake manifold on there too. The O-ring seal on the engine side of the intake manifold might not be working right, you can use some gasket sealer on that. The intake manifold is known to get some good cracks under the clamp on the carb end too.
|
|
|
|
Post by gy6rocket on Mar 10, 2008 7:20:16 GMT -5
If it were my scooter I would gut the entire fuel system, replace all the lines and filter, and source a good small volume electric fuel pump and hook it up to the ignition.
|
|
|
|
Post by funderp47 on Mar 10, 2008 8:35:33 GMT -5
I agree with gy6rocket. This electric fuel pump or one like it is available from most auto parts stores. www.hallspeedshop.com/electric-fuel-pump-p-2100.htmlI can't remember if it comes with 1/4" barbed fittings to screw into both sides or not. It needs to be mounted as low as possible. You don't have to use the base holes to fasten it solidly. You can use nylon tye-wraps or whatever to mount it. Make sure you get the lowest pressure version for a carburetted scooter. You would have to remove the vacuum line from the existing pump and plug it, or better, trace back and find the T fitting and replace it with a coupling. They are very reliable and are use by homebuilt airplane builders, even though the company has a disclaimer for that use. They have little current draw under operation. |
|
|
|
Post by earlwb on Mar 10, 2008 9:28:39 GMT -5
Well I would try moving the fuel pump to about even with the bottom of the fuel tank.
These pumps work better at pushing fuel, not sucking fuel.
I think that should correct the problem.
From the looks of it at the current location, gas vapors or air gets into the inlet fuel line after the scooter has set for a while, and it only sucks fumes.
|
|
|
|
Post by jackthefuzz on Mar 10, 2008 10:36:30 GMT -5
you could replace the fuel pump with a Genuine Honda fuel pump from a GC160 lawnmower engine. they are cheap and very reliable and work off of crank case pulse ( T into your valve cover vent) I have used these pumps on alot of my frankenbike projects. Bypass your fuel shut off valve remove it, plug the vacuum line that was running to it. ( if you are still using the OEM carb, DO NOT remove those vacuum lines), then do the vacuum fuel shut off valve ritual to the scooters gods. 1) remove valve 2) light torch 3) light valve on fire using torch 4) do the valve dance 5) get another drink and repeat as necessary until the valve is no more yu can get the pump online here www.planopower.com/store/honda/gc160.shtmlor order from any honda small engine dealer part number 16700-Z0J-003 for around 15-18 bucks |
|
|
|
Post by abscooters on Apr 2, 2008 18:34:14 GMT -5
I have seen this several times now. It is not just isolated to Tank, I have seen it in the Lance scooters too.
The Gas getting to the fuel pump or the vacuum fuel petcock is unfiltered. This allows dirt or debris to clog the fuel pump. This can lead to a stall anywhere, anytime, & that is NOT safe. A fuel filter has room for debris to build up inside of it, a fuel pump does not.
In that fuel pump inlet, is a screen, A little debris is enough to render the pump useless. The ones that don't have screens sometimes get damaged by the debris, in which case you will have to replace it.
To fix,
Move Fuel filter before pump.
Take pump off and blow through it in reverse(yes with your mouth not compressed air), should be able to get the debris to come out. Many of them you can take apart and push it out from the inside. Reinstall pump and go riding.
If the fuel pump is damaged and you replace the pump, make sure you move the fuel filter to before the fuel pump.
The first thing that gas sees when it leaves the Tank is a FILTER, before it goes anywhere else.
|
|
