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Post by kink on Oct 2, 2008 14:06:27 GMT -5
So here's the story: The last couple of days I have been noticing that every once in a while my steering seems a bit stiff. I couldn't quite put my finger on it but it seemed as though there was more resistance when turning at low speeds. This morning the thought popped into my head to check tire pressure so on my way to work I pulled in to the local gas station and checked. I assumed the front tire would be the culprit but it turns out the back tire was actually quite low and the front one was bang on. I filled up the rear tire and began to pull away, shaking my head... That was when the steering began to get quite stiff. Still in the parking lot I quickly pulled over. I put the scoot on the c-stand and began to check and see if any of the cables were getting caught on the inside of the fairing as I turned the bars. As I was turning the handlebars back and forth to check, they suddenly locked and I could barely move them at all! Well, at this point I dis-assembled the entire front end plastics (still in the parking lot) and removed the ignition to see if the steering column lock was the culprit. Even with the lock off there was still no budging the steering head. I called my dad and he brought more tools and after removing the entire front fork we finally found the culprit: The lower front steering head bearing was shredded! Why would this happen, you might ask? THE DAMN THING LOOKED LIKE IT HAD NEVER SEEN A SPECK OF GREASE IN IT'S LIFE! Both the top and bottom steering head bearings were dry as a bone. I took the bearing to the dealer and they said I could have wiped the grease off and/or done the damage while removing the bearing. We called their bluff and said we would be taking the part to the ministry of transportation to inspection unless they give us a free replacement bearing. Apparently now they need to track the part down and it may be several days (which in china-parts-time is like 3 weeks right?) If I had been riding at speed when that bearing decided to lock up it would have been bad news. The moral of the story is: if you haven't checked the major support bearings on your bike, they are due for an inspection!! Make sure you take them apart fully because this bearing looked alright from the side until we got it all the way off the bike and got a good look at it. Bearings like grease... a dry bearing is a sad bearing.
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Post by fastasssr20 on Oct 2, 2008 14:55:57 GMT -5
Dang that is crazy my little 50cc feels like it is getting hard to turn im just wondering if its the bearing or bc I ride my 150 so much it just has a different ride to it. I will have to check this out. Nice find even tho it is unfortunate.
Fastasssr20
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Post by wf1761 on Oct 2, 2008 15:32:30 GMT -5
Heeters.com has all kinds of bearings under accessories.
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Post by earlwb on Oct 2, 2008 15:56:28 GMT -5
They use standard bearings. You should be able to match it up at your bearing supply store. There ought to be some part numbers on it someplace too. yeah they are not lubing these things at the factory, as far as I can tell. Another classic cost cutting technique. it is definitely worth it to grease the steering head bearings. I have to pull mine off too, as it has a notch in the steering that is irritating me when riding around curves, it sorta makes it feel wobbly as you make the turn.
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Post by windbreaker on Oct 2, 2008 16:29:48 GMT -5
Getting replacement bearings at a bearing specialty shop sounds like a much easier fix to me, and there shouldn't be any quality questions as opposed to stock bearings. Your dealer has already tried to avoid the issue by trying to blame you for the problem, so I can't see them bending over backwards to get you a replacement part within a few weeks. (While your scoot sits unused for the last part of the riding season.)
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Post by gy6rocket on Oct 2, 2008 20:18:42 GMT -5
Wow, thats really messed up!
+1 for bringing this up, will add it to the list of things to do for my winter tear down and rebuild.
Inspect, replace if necessary, and GREASE!
Glad this didn't happen at 50 mph, someone was looking out for you as you would have went down fast and hard...
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Post by garyr on Oct 2, 2008 20:38:31 GMT -5
On my other bike, a 2008 GSR-150, the steering was likewise overly firm. I made a couple of wrenches and adjusted the bearing loading nut to a lighter setting( I loosened it). Noticed it had no grease on it, so I backed it way off and lubed the top and bottom bearings. Lot of difference! My current bike, a 2008 Duke 150, has it right. Greased and handling good. Garyr
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Post by leo on Oct 2, 2008 21:35:17 GMT -5
We called their bluff and said we would be taking the part to the ministry of transportation to inspection unless they give us a free replacement bearing. you need to do this anyway. ASAP! you probably know that i'm a pro-chinese scooter person but when i see stuff like this i'll certainly tell them what i think about it. i wouldn't care if they gave me 10,000 dollars to keep my mouth shut, i would STILL DO IT. a note to others: take pictures before you dismantle the bike, preferably in the presence of a trustworthy person.
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Post by kink on Oct 3, 2008 7:07:39 GMT -5
Thanks for all the suggestions guys! I did actually take the bearing in to a couple of shops and NAPA did have the part but they want $84 for it. Maybe I'll check some bearing specific places.
The upshot of this situation is that IF I'm keeping this bike for next season then at some point in the winter me and my Dad will be doing a FULL tear down of the bike and inspecting EVERYTHING. I just don't trust it at all any more.
As I said, that is IF I keep it. I'm strongly considering buying something else and selling the scoot. Sadly I do love this scoot and I don't think I'd be able to afford anything from a more reputable brand, but I've already had two frame welds go as well as this bearing (and lots of minor glitches and bugs). Frame welds are something you can't ignore, even if they are just minor non-structural ones...
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Post by dean on Oct 3, 2008 7:47:06 GMT -5
Kink - if your steering froze up while making a left turn you wouldn't be riding anything except a cloud while playing a harp. You are the fourth one in the last month to have something happen to steering like this. You say you can't afford a reputable brand, but can you afford not to?
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Post by kink on Oct 3, 2008 10:18:49 GMT -5
Kink - if your steering froze up while making a left turn you wouldn't be riding anything except a cloud while playing a harp. You are the fourth one in the last month to have something happen to steering like this. You say you can't afford a reputable brand, but can you afford not to? That is precisely what I've been thinking. I love riding but it's not worth it to me to risk the lives of my wife and I riding something that I don't have confidence in. I think this scooter would be well suited to someone who wants to do some leisure riding once or twice a week. It's just not up to the task of a rigorous inner city commute day in and day out. I think the next step is to start looking at a used motorcycle. I'm thinking it would be a good idea to buy one in the late fall and hold onto both bikes until the spring and then sell the scoot. That way I'll get a cheaper deal on the motorcycle and a better price for the scooter... If that doesn't work out and I end up keeping the scooter I will definitely be doing a FULL tear down this winter. EVERY part will be inspected and receive proper maintenance. I want to take an especially close look at the frame welds, since I've had two small pieces break off already (part of the center stand and the left mirror mount). I get the impression that the structural frame welds are done with a robotic welder and are solid, whereas the smaller bits are done by hand and are really shoddy spot welding jobs, but I want to make absolutely sure I don't get any other nasty surprises. Next time I might not be lucky enough to notice the problem while riding slowly in a parking lot...
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Post by earlwb on Oct 3, 2008 11:34:04 GMT -5
Wow $84 bucks for that bearing. That must have been a really nice one for sure. You can try www.vxb.com/ballbearings.html?gclid=CNOPx42-i5YCFQJvswodkxiHEwand see if they have it. I have bought a bunch of their bearings and have had good success with them. I keep meaning to get to the bearing on my 150 too. It sure as heck looks like the same bearing they use on the Harley Wheel bearings and my Boat trailer wheels too. A few months ago, while riding my bicycle home from work, as I was traveling through the DFW airport, some truck had a large assortment of different bearings fall off the back. I stopped and picked them all up, most don't fit anything I know of yet, but I still keep trying to use them on something.
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Post by kink on Oct 3, 2008 12:25:54 GMT -5
Wow $84 bucks for that bearing. That must have been a really nice one for sure. You can try www.vxb.com/ballbearings.html?gclid=CNOPx42-i5YCFQJvswodkxiHEwand see if they have it. I have bought a bunch of their bearings and have had good success with them. I keep meaning to get to the bearing on my 150 too. It sure as heck looks like the same bearing they use on the Harley Wheel bearings and my Boat trailer wheels too. A few months ago, while riding my bicycle home from work, as I was traveling through the DFW airport, some truck had a large assortment of different bearings fall off the back. I stopped and picked them all up, most don't fit anything I know of yet, but I still keep trying to use them on something. LOL! I've got this awesome mental picture of you clamoring about in the street like some kind of bearing junkie
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Post by anhoa on Oct 3, 2008 13:21:05 GMT -5
earlwb, Did your wife make you ride the bicycle to loose some weight? or your son took the scooter for a joy ride? ;D Watch out for those airplane's wheel bearings too. Sometime they can't land due to broken/fall off wheel bearings. ;D Anhoa
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Post by earlwb on Oct 3, 2008 13:27:49 GMT -5
I have been riding bicycles for a number of years. yes it does help to lose weight. My commute is on the extreme edge of being too far, 23 miles one way. I just cannot resist stopping for errant coins on the roads, tools, iPod, various denomination bills, and other things like a small bicycle trunk bag full of assorted size ball bearings in their boxes. No one rides my scooters but me. But with the economy going down, people are throwing out fewer coins at the intersections though. I have about 5 dollars worth of road kill coins at work that I have collected over the last year or so. When i don't feel like bicycling then I scooter instead.
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Post by indy50 on Oct 4, 2008 11:30:22 GMT -5
Chekd mine last nite after reading this post................bone dry................Thanx bone 4 ya kink
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Post by kink on Oct 6, 2008 9:41:35 GMT -5
glad you caught that nice and early indy.
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Post by gy6rocket on Oct 6, 2008 11:09:42 GMT -5
These bikes are actually decent, but they pretty much require a complete teardown and rebuild from the factory to make sure simple things (like grease) are in place. I cannot even begin to tell how many small, simple things I found wrong with my strada during my initinal teardown. It's a lot of work, but it gives a peace of mind knowing that everything is working and assembeled the way it should be. I've noticed that the bolts are another very defective item, most of the original fasteners on my bike were stripped. Its like they reuse them at the factory or something.
I just look at it like this. You get what you pay for. If your not going to invest money in quality to begin with (i.e. cheapscoot) than you better be willing to invest time to take it all apart and upgrade or fix the weak links.
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Post by scooterjim on Oct 6, 2008 20:09:14 GMT -5
Kink, I think you might be right. Maybe it's time to trade in the scoot for a motorcycle. My Strada has been plagued with problems. As soon as I fix one thing another thing fails. My winter tear down was going to include wheel bearings. Now, I have to go after fork bearings, too!!! And, who knows what else. I'm already into this "hobby" for close to $3000. So much for my cheap scooter. I got the scooter because of the great gas milage. For $3500 I could have gotten a Yamaha Virago 250 and still get better than 70mpg. I'm dirt close to throwing in the towel.
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Post by kink on Oct 7, 2008 9:38:23 GMT -5
I hear ya scooterjim. Unfortunately in Canada we are starved for choice for two wheelers, especially scooters. There are the big name Japanese brands and then there are a couple of Canadian brands which are still quite expensive. Then there is the ONE Chinese B&M which is where I bought my Saigon. The wife and I discussed the issue and decided that we can't really afford anything else. A better quality scooter would be too expensive and although a motorcycle might give us more value for our money, it would be much trickier to find parking near my work (I can park the scooter on the sidewalk out front). So I'm going with the full tear-down approach. I'm going to cancel payments on the parking space in our building at the end of October and put the scoot in storage for the winter. Unfortunately I won't be able to do the tear-down in the space I am using for storage, so I'll have to find a friend with a garage I can borrow in the early spring. If I do end up getting all the parts I need to put the scoot back on the road before the end of October I will be thoroughly inspecting both axle bearings and both fork bearings and making sure they are all greased appropriately. I also plan on thoroughly inspecting the brake system as well. I'm canceling my order with www.bearingoutlet.com since I put the order in on Saturday and haven't heard anything back from them yet. My order is still "pending review" apparently. I'll have to source the part locally which will be more expensive but when you factor in the cost of transit to get the wife and I to work every day it's really adding up ($7.75 per day that we wouldn't have to spend if we had the scoot on the road). I would NOT reccomend bearing outlet as they appear to be accepting orders but not actually processing them.
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Post by kink on Oct 7, 2008 11:48:00 GMT -5
PS: thanks for the sticky guys. this is definitely an issue of concern for anyone with a chinese bike...
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Post by gy6rocket on Oct 7, 2008 17:15:17 GMT -5
I read somewhere on this forum that a BMX crank bearing will fit the steering stalk. May want to try a bike store, would be cost effective. Bring the old one and see if they match up.
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Post by kink on Oct 7, 2008 20:43:35 GMT -5
Thanks for the tip. I'll check that out.
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Post by mx5tc on Oct 7, 2008 23:04:31 GMT -5
I've noticed that the bolts are another very defective item, most of the original fasteners on my bike were stripped. Its like they reuse them at the factory or something. I just look at it like this. You get what you pay for. If your not going to invest money in quality to begin with (i.e. cheapscoot) than you better be willing to invest time to take it all apart and upgrade or fix the weak links. Chinese "hardware" on their low-end exports appears to be one of the areas that is the worst. I've got a cheap Chinese 3 and 1 machine; the first thing anyone does with these (and the 12xx36 lathes) is replace all the nuts and bolts with quality US fasteners. I don't want to worry about a heavy 4 jaw chuck breaking loose 500rpm, so I replaced all the Chinese hardware. Cheap hardware notwithstanding, total indicated run-out on the lathe spindle is lonly about .001. Standard PDI on the Chinese machine tools is to: 1. Mostly take-apart 2. Replace cheap Chinese OEM belts 3. Replace cheap Chinese fasteners 4. Inspect wiring, check for loose connnections 5. Drain gearbox, flush sand & casting flash, re-fill with quality US lubricants 6. Remove all excess paint overspray from machined surfaces & oiling buttons 7. Clean congealed and debris laden mystery grease from lead screws 8. Re-assemble and adjust. Lathe headstock bearings and mill head bearings are strictly a crapshoot on the 3n1 machines. Some people have them "bad" out of the box; others get years of use before replacement with quality Timken bearings is required. FWIW, the scoot PDI is easier than a 12x36 lathe or 3n1 machine. YMMV, Mitch
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Post by kcguy on Oct 9, 2008 1:37:17 GMT -5
I just look at it like this. You get what you pay for. Fair enough statement, but let me ask this to you. How many people do you think can just whip out 1300-1700$ without flinching at all and say "Here this scooter is soooo cheap, I just saved a week or 2 to get it". I think most people that buy scooters, or at least a good portion of them like myself have to save up for a good amount of time to treat themselves to one. I get what I pay for indeed, and compared to say, Vespa, my scooter was very cheap, but in general a 1500$ ish investment is not something just to spit at. If the Chinese wont improve quality, or more importantly safety, then its up to our government to step in and put some hard regulations on these bikes. We all want and have our freedoms, but when something is obviously dangerous and recklessly made, then it is also the responsibility of of government to protect us.
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Post by kink on Oct 9, 2008 9:10:58 GMT -5
kcguy, I agree that there needs to be a certain standard by which something is deemed road-worthy and that the government should enforce that standard, however I think in practice it isn't as simple as that.
The fact of the matter is that in principle these scooters meet north american safety approval standards. They tick all the boxes when they are put together right. It's the shoddy assembly practices that cause them to become a hazard. Unfortunately it is very difficult to pin the blame after the fact. Take my fork bearing for an example: it should have been greased from the factory AND if it wasn't it should have been caught by their PDI. Now I could go to the ministry of transportation and make a big fuss and if I managed to prove their negligence they could have their license revoked but that isn't going to stop the problem at all. Some other dealer will pop up with cheap chinese scoots to sell and they won't bother to check them over 100% before selling them either because it's not "cost effective".
The truth is: consumers have nobody to blame but themselves. The reason dealers and manufacturers cut corners is to keep costs down. If people were prepared to pay more for quality there wouldn't be as robust a market niche for cheap products. I freely admit that when I bought the scooter I knew I was getting sub-standard quality. I'm not an idiot, so the prospect of paying less than 1/4 the going rate for a vehicle of comparable specifications indicated to me that I would get what I paid for. I was prepared to put some work into the scoot to get it up and running. Not checking the bearings was an oversight on my part and not something I'm likely to repeat.
That having been said, there is the counter argument that not everyone would be as mechanically savvy as some of us dawgs. My response to that is this: common sense dictates that you get what you pay for and if a deal looks "too good to be true" it probably is. If you choose to take a risk with your life to save a few bucks then you accept that responsibility.
As long as people keep buying them someone will be selling them. At the end of the day, the bikes do meet safety standards in theory, barring anomalies like this one. That's why when I noticed the problem I posted it here immediately so other people could learn from my misfortune because something like this is easy to deal with if you catch it in advance. An educated consumer is the best defense against shifty salespeople.
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Post by JR on Oct 9, 2008 9:18:02 GMT -5
I see you are online I am a new member and when you want to post a message to you hit new thread or poll Thanks
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Post by kink on Oct 9, 2008 14:06:49 GMT -5
I see you are online I am a new member and when you want to post a message to you hit new thread or poll Thanks You hit new thread. Poll will create a thread with a poll in it for voting on a topic/issue.
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Post by JR on Oct 9, 2008 15:05:21 GMT -5
Thanks guy for the help.
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Post by garyr on Oct 9, 2008 21:01:00 GMT -5
Kink, I agree totally with you. I bought a new 2008 H-D Electra-glide Ultra Classic this January and paid about $22,000 for it. I have been into motorcycles for about 40+ years and felt I could afford it. That said, I also bought a 2008 Lance GSR-150 in June, however, due to it feeling very squirrelly I traded it in on the current scooter, a Lance Duke 150. We really like the Duke. We paid about $2000 for the Duke. I am tolerant of problems with the $2000 Duke which I can fix. But, for $22,000 I expect the H-D to be ready for me anytime I want to ride 100, 300, or 500 miles with basic maintenance -- fill the gas and check the oil and tires -- Let's ride. So, yes, we should expect to perform the PDI to get rid of shoddy construction and assembly. But, somehow, putting a little grease on something as important as steering bearings just shouldn't be too hard to do in a factory that puts together such a fun machine as our scooters. Come on China, is this the way you construct all your machines? If you make cars for sale in the USA you will not get 2 sales if you insist on assembling them this way. Scootdawgs are knowledgeable and will take the time and care to fix it,, cage drivers want to just get and go. (I do, when I buy a car.) Ride often and safely. Garyr
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