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Post by earlwb on Jan 9, 2008 21:16:10 GMT -5
Yes it looks very possible with some effort and a little talent. The Megasquirt EFI system www.bgsoflex.com/megasquirt.htmland here too www.megasquirt.info/This is a Computerized EFI system that can be adapted to scooters fairly easily (depending on the talent) of course). They have partial kits and full kits and even assembled units too. Since they EFI computer comes preprogrammed, you only have to adjust the mapping for your engine, and on the forums they may already have mapping data for you too. Update, they now have a "microsquirt" unit, which is much smaller than the older "megasquirt". www.microsquirt.info/
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Post by earlwb on Sept 26, 2008 5:44:27 GMT -5
Ok the megasquirt people have a user forum for success stories. blogs, et cetera. Here is one guy's story of his efforts on converting a old motorcycle to EFI using a megasquirt. www.msruns.com/viewtopic.php?f=104&t=22612&st=0&sk=t&sd=aI don't know if anyone has tried a scooter yet. I'll have to peruse their forum and see. Scooters have more room for hiding the regular sized megasquirt ECU unit so one doesn't need to go for the new microsquirt unit. This guy converted a Honda 90 over to EFI and LPG too. www.msruns.com/viewtopic.php?f=97&t=22663This guy did a Briggs and Stratton engine. That might make for a good experimental base too. www.msruns.com/viewtopic.php?f=97&t=1411Didn't find anyone messing with a scooter yet.
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Post by earlwb on Sept 26, 2008 5:55:56 GMT -5
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Post by chade76 on Sept 26, 2008 21:44:16 GMT -5
not bad at all . I like the dual spark option..Just need to make it plug and play..
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Post by nodestiny on Sept 26, 2008 21:46:34 GMT -5
I have always wanted to megasquirt my minivan (2.5 turbo)... it woudl offer amazing tuning and keep things from blowing up!
Now with the scooter, the ability to get fuel injection and spark control... imagine the possibilities!
In other words, its time to make some good turbo-scooter lovins!
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Post by thedannymullen on Sept 27, 2008 0:26:23 GMT -5
I thought about building my own, but decided the work would be difficult. The work being software, in addition to the cost for all the sensors and such. I saw no positive cost benefit. I would love to install electronics if I could purchase them off the shelf for less than 50bux esle I dont see the value. I will just wait until they come stock...
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Post by educatordan on Sept 27, 2008 14:14:08 GMT -5
I wonder how close the Chinese are to offering EFI as a starndard piece of equipment? I don't think I'd buy the first generation but after giving them a couple of years to tinker with it, it would be an interesting innovation. Wonder what it would do for fuel economy on the 150cc and 250cc machines?
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Post by swakk on Sept 27, 2008 18:50:58 GMT -5
in taiwan you have efi in original mount on a lot of scoot in china it start to be too, because lot of town have adpoted really hard laws against pollution some even forbide motorbike the chinese efi, mainly made by fai is really flexible and can require really few equipment and captor i hope i'll be able to have one in the future to mess with
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Post by dtwscooter on Sept 30, 2008 7:43:44 GMT -5
Somebody will make a lot of money when they offer plug and play EFI to retrofit our scoots for reasonable amount of cost. The driveability, fuel efficiency and reliability offered by EFI would justify $200 price tag for me. Is that asking too much?..,
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Post by swakk on Sept 30, 2008 11:52:06 GMT -5
if i remember well the handled programmator is already around 100 or more i don't remember the price of the whole injection alone maybe we posted this in our late discution but it wasn't expensive
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Post by thedannymullen on Sept 30, 2008 23:14:18 GMT -5
Considering I build engine electronics for my day job I consider 200 overpriced. I think something is the 50-100 range would be fair, definitely closer to the 50 if not truely plug and play. To run fuel injection on our scoots it would only take a small 3-5 dollar micro, a fuel pump and some sensors.
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Post by dtwscooter on Oct 1, 2008 7:46:25 GMT -5
cheapchinaman, I'm trying to hide my joy here but will you be willing to pull together PnP system from the likes of Megasquirt and the inexpensive bits you mentioned for the Dawgs? Imagine, system borne out of the Dawg pond that is cost effective and perform just as good.
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Post by Aerostudent on Oct 2, 2008 1:21:58 GMT -5
!!!!!! Seriously!!!!!! Cheapchinaman, you put together some EFI for 50-100 smackers that is just plug and play (or minimal mods anyway), and we will start talking! That would increase performance in both speed and mileage aspects most likely. Would it be tunable, or self-tuning? Like with feedback for O2? Sounds like a plan...
Aero
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Post by earlwb on Oct 2, 2008 11:06:47 GMT -5
well considering all the parts needed, besides the electronics and sensors, you have the wiring, connectors, etc. Plus you need the fuel pump, single port injector, and a throttle body. Maybe a intake manifold too. I see $200 bucks as quite reasonable. You go for CheapChinaMan, you'll get a number of us wanting to buy it.
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Post by dtwscooter on Oct 2, 2008 12:16:45 GMT -5
I may get flamed for this, but CCM, even if you can get open loop control system(ie., w/o o2 sensor) I'm in for your system. : )
Throttle position + air temp - what more information does EFI need?! : )
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Post by jamescell on Oct 3, 2008 11:19:58 GMT -5
I think $200 for a plug and play efi setup would be a steal! I buy one today. It seems like every other post on the forum is something to do with fuel air mixture problems.
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Post by earlwb on Oct 3, 2008 15:33:11 GMT -5
History and development
Frederick William Lanchester joined the Forward Gas Engine Company Birmingham, England in 1889. He carried out what were possibly the earliest experiments with fuel injection. In 1896 E.J. Pennington had detailed a crude form of fuel injection in the patent for his motorcycle (U.S. patent 574262).[citation needed]. Herbert Akroyd Stuart developed the first system laid out on modern lines (with a highly-accurate 'jerk pump' to meter out fuel oil at high pressure to an injector. This system was used on the hot bulb engine and was adapted and improved by Robert Bosch for use on diesel engines- Rudolf Diesel's original system using a cumbersome and less efficient 'air-blast' system using highly compressed air.
Fuel injection was in widespread commercial use in diesel engines by the mid-1920s. Because of its greater immunity to wildly changing g-forces on the engine, the concept was adapted for use in gasoline-powered aircraft during World War II, and direct injection was employed in some notable designs like the Daimler-Benz DB 603, the BMW 801, the Shvetsov ASh-82FN (M-82FN) and later versions of the Wright R-3350 used in the B-29 Superfortress.
One of the first commercial gasoline injection systems was a mechanical system developed by Bosch and introduced in 1955 on the Mercedes-Benz 300SL. This system used a normal fuel pump, to provide fuel to a mechanically driven injection pump, which had separate plungers per injector to deliver a very high injection pressure directly into the combustion chamber. A variant of this system, also by Bosch, but injecting the fuel into the port above the intake valve was later used by Porsche from 1969 until 1973 for the 911 production range in the USA and until 1975 on the Carrera RS 2.7 and RS 3.0 street models in Europe. Porsche continued using it on its racing cars into the late seventies and early eighties. Porsche racing variants such as the 911 RSR 2.7 & 3.0, 904/6, 906, 907, 908, 910, 917 (in its regular normally aspirated or 5.5 Liter/1500 HP Turbocharged form), and 935 all used Bosch or Kugelfischer built variants of injection. The Kugelfischer system was also used by the BMW 2000/2002 Tii and some versions of the Peugeot 404/504 and Lancia Flavia. Lucas also offered a mechanical system which was used by some Maserati, Aston Martin and Triumph models between ca. 1963 and 1973. The first factory electronic fuel injection, a true multi-point system, with dual 2-bbl. throttles, was optional on 1958 Chrysler products, both Hemi and wedge engines. It was jointly engineered by Chrysler and Bendix.
A system similar to the Bosch inline mechanical pump was built by SPICA for Alfa Romeo, used on the Alfa Romeo Montreal and on US market 1750 and 2000 models from 1969 until 1981. This was specifically designed to meet the US emission requirements, and allowed Alfa to meet these requirements at no loss in performance and with a reduction in fuel consumption.
In 1957, Chevrolet introduced a mechanical fuel injection option, made by General Motors' Rochester Products division, for its 283 V8 engine. This system directed the inducted engine air across a "spoon shaped" plunger that moved in proportion to the air volume. The plunger connected to the fuel metering system which mechanically dispensed fuel to the cylinders via distribution tubes. This system was not a "pulse" or intermittent injection, but rather a constant flow system, metering fuel to all cylinders simultaneously from a central "spider" of injection lines. The fuel meter adjusted the amount of flow according to engine speed and load, and included a fuel reservoir, which was similar to a carburetor's float chamber. With its own high-pressure fuel pump driven by a cable from the distributor to the fuel meter, the system supplied the necessary pressure for injection. However, this was "port" injection, in which the injectors are located in the intake manifold, very near the intake valve. (Direct fuel injection is a fairly recent innovation for automobile engines.) The highest performance version of the fuel injected engine was rated at 283 bhp (211 kW) from 283 in3 (4.6 L). This made it among the early production engines in history to exceed 1 hp/in³ (45.5 kW/L), after Chrysler's Hemi engine and a number of others.
During the 1960s, other mechanical injection systems such as Hilborn were occasionally used on modified American V8 engines in various racing applications such as drag racing, oval racing, and road racing.[citation needed] These racing-derived systems were not suitable for everyday street use, having no provisions for low speed metering or even starting (fuel had to be squirted into the injector tubes while cranking the engine in order to start it). However they were a favorite in the aforementioned competition trials in which essentially wide-open throttle operation was prevalent.
The first commercial electronic fuel injection (EFI) system was Electrojector, developed by the Bendix Corporation and was to be offered by American Motors (AMC) in 1957.[1] A special muscle car model, the Rambler Rebel, showcased AMC's new 327 in3 (5.4 L) engine. The Electrojector was an option and rated at 288 bhp (214.8 kW). The Rebel Owners Manual described the design and operation of the new system.[2] Initial press information about the Bendix system in December 1956 was followed in March 1957 by a price bulletin that pegged the option at US$395, but due to supplier difficulties, fuel-injected Rebels would only be available after June 15.[3] This was to have been the first production EFI engine, but Electrojector's teething problems meant only pre-production cars were so equipped and none were made available to the public.[4] The EFI system in the Rambler was a far more-advanced setup than the mechanical types then appearing on the market and the engines ran fine in warm weather, but suffered hard starting in cooler temperatures.[5]
Chrysler offered Electrojector on the 1958 300D, the D500, and the DeSoto Adventurer, arguably the first series-production cars equipped with an EFI system, but the early electronic components were not equal to the rigors of underhood service, and were too slow to keep up with the demands of "on the fly" engine control. Most vehicles originally so equipped were field-retrofitted with 4-barrel carburetors. The Electrojector patents were subsequently sold to Bosch.
Bosch developed an electronic fuel injection system, called D-Jetronic (D for Druck, German for "pressure"), which was first used on the VW 1600TL in 1967. This was a speed/density system, using engine speed and intake manifold air density to calculate "air mass" flow rate and thus fuel requirements. The system used all analog, discrete electronics, and an electro-mechanical pressure sensor. The sensor was susceptible to vibration and dirt.[citation needed] This system was adopted by VW, Mercedes-Benz, Porsche, Citroën, Saab, and Volvo. Lucas licensed the system for production with Jaguar.
Bosch superseded the D-Jetronic system with the K-Jetronic and L-Jetronic systems for 1974, though some cars (such as the Volvo 164) continued using D-Jetronic for the following several years. The Cadillac Seville was introduced in 1977 with an EFI system made by Bendix and modelled very closely on Bosch's D-Jetronic. L-Jetronic first appeared on the 1974 Porsche 914, and uses a mechanical airflow meter (L for Luft, German for "air") that produces a signal that is proportional to "air volume". This approach required additional sensors to measure the barometer and temperature, to ultimately calculate "air mass". L-Jetronic was widely adopted on European cars of that period, and a few Japanese models a short time later.
In 1982, Bosch introduced a sensor that directly measures the air mass flow into the engine, on their L-Jetronic system. Bosch called this LH-Jetronic (L for Luftmasse and H for Hitzdraht, German for "air mass" and "hot wire", respectively). The mass air sensor utilizes a heated platinum wire placed in the incoming air flow. The rate of the wire's cooling is proportional to the air mass flowing across the wire. Since the hot wire sensor directly measures air mass, the need for additional temperature and pressure sensors is eliminated. The LH-Jetronic system was also the first fully digital EFI system, which is now the standard approach.[citation needed] The advent of the digital microprocessor permitted the integration of all powertrain sub-systems into a single control module.
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Post by dtwscooter on Oct 7, 2008 6:53:49 GMT -5
CheapChinaMan, bump for your input : )
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Post by chade76 on Oct 13, 2008 23:31:07 GMT -5
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Post by chade76 on Oct 13, 2008 23:36:13 GMT -5
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Post by dtwscooter on Oct 14, 2008 13:33:47 GMT -5
TBI...PFI.., I'm just waiting for CheapChinaMan's system : )
OTOH, if anyone lives in Thailand and can source the said EFI system from Honda, we might have a group buy going here. Anyone? I'm sure fueling 125cc is no sweat for the system designed for 110cc.
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Post by gy6rocket on Oct 15, 2008 23:54:37 GMT -5
Consider me on board to buy a system if someone is successful in putting together a package.
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Post by Rockin Ran on Oct 17, 2008 17:55:59 GMT -5
Count me in for that too! Plug and scoot would be sweet.
Ran
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Post by mx5tc on Oct 18, 2008 0:54:43 GMT -5
History and developmentsnip... In 1982, Bosch introduced a sensor that directly measures the air mass flow into the engine, on their L-Jetronic system. Bosch called this LH-Jetronic (L for Luftmasse and H for Hitzdraht, German for "air mass" and "hot wire", respectively). The mass air sensor utilizes a heated platinum wire placed in the incoming air flow. The rate of the wire's cooling is proportional to the air mass flowing across the wire. Since the hot wire sensor directly measures air mass, the need for additional temperature and pressure sensors is eliminated. The LH-Jetronic system was also the first fully digital EFI system, which is now the standard approach.[citation needed] The advent of the digital microprocessor permitted the integration of all powertrain sub-systems into a single control module. Modern EFI systems are of two genres; MAF (as described above) or MAP (Manifold Absolute Pressure). For fuel economy, emissions compliance and driveability on a production vehicle, most "experts" lean towards MAF as the superior system. Conversely, dedicated EFI race vehicles almost exclusively run MAP systems unless class rules require running an OEM MAF system. For high performance use, MAP systems (MegaSquirt is a MAP system) are easier to tune and do not have the "expensive bottleneck" of a MAF sensor. A properly tuned sequential injection MAP system (MegaSquirt, at last look, was still batch injection) can come close to a MAF system in driveability, emissions and economy and is cheaper, easier and faster to tune (particularly with a wideband O2). MAP systems are also easier to setup for supercharger or turbocharger applications; they do not have the "blow thru" issues that arise in MAF systems. Getting a plug and play ("PNP") "Scooter Megasquirt" is strictly a demand problem; the latest version of Megasquirt can easily handle fuel and timing for any NA or blown GY6. A PNP system requires a critical mass of demand before an "integrator" will gear-up and do the work required to develop a system that will "plug-in" to an existing vehicle. PNP Megasquirts for the Mazda Miata that plug into the existing ECU harness and use existing sensors, injectors and inexpensive generic sensors (e.g., GM MAP sensor) sell for about $800. A simple (fuel only, no timing management) Megaquirt system could probably be built for about $200 (that's the you solder it version) and the other minimum required parts (injector, throttle body, intake manifold, MAP sensor) could probably be pieced together for $200-300 if one was thrifty and resourceful. This adds up to a minimum cost of $400-500 if one can solder, source parts creatively and be a Systems Integrator. On top of that, a laptop computer (or a desktop with a very long cable) is required to initially program fuel curves and then datalog and re-program the system. How many people will put this kind of money and effort into a scooter???
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Post by thedannymullen on Oct 21, 2008 0:06:10 GMT -5
Sorry guys I hadnt checked the thread for a while. I would love to put together a system, the problem is time and money. Once producing the price per unit would be inexpensive, but to start up would be big. I have a few friends doing some personal development on a mod for a diesel engine and the boards with the micro I am speaking of were 50bux each(micro pinned out for sensor hookup only). That is because it costs more for circuit vendors to tool up than to produce. We run into this problem at work for development samples, a 3-5 dollar circuit board can cost up to 1000 bux when you need 5day spin and only 10 of them. The problem i see in developing a fuel injection system is less about the electronics and more about the mechanics. You would have to have a fake carb compact enough that it would fit multiple engines and body styles, I know jacine posted this link: scootdawg.proboards59.com/index.cgi?board=general&action=display&thread=14034 Company from Jacine's Link I think someone has beat us to it : www.123triadprojects.com/electrojet_inc/index.htmlThe circuit board they show is very minimal cost if produced in volume.
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Post by mx5tc on Oct 21, 2008 1:22:54 GMT -5
Sorry guys I hadnt checked the thread for a while. I would love to put together a system, the problem is time and money. Once producing the price per unit would be inexpensive, but to start up would be big. I have a few friends doing some personal development on a mod for a diesel engine and the boards with the micro I am speaking of were 50bux each(micro pinned out for sensor hookup only). That is because it costs more for circuit vendors to tool up than to produce. We run into this problem at work for development samples, a 3-5 dollar circuit board can cost up to 1000 bux when you need 5day spin and only 10 of them. The problem i see in developing a fuel injection system is less about the electronics and more about the mechanics. You would have to have a fake carb compact enough that it would fit multiple engines and body styles, I know jacine posted this link: scootdawg.proboards59.com/index.cgi?board=general&action=display&thread=14034 Company from Jacine's Link I think someone has beat us to it : www.123triadprojects.com/electrojet_inc/index.htmlThe circuit board they show is very minimal cost if produced in volume. I think the hardware is the least of your worries; everything you need to do the project exists and is already in production. The challenge is putting all the components together into an integrated functioning system that is readily adaptable to a 150cc scoot. Hardware component costs are a small part of the total cost of developing, testing and producing a functional EFI system. The big costs are software development, systems integration, testing (module, unit & system) quality control and product support and ongoing enhancements.
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Post by dtwscooter on Oct 21, 2008 9:17:53 GMT -5
mx5tc, I hear what you say but the scootdawg crowd is not afraid to pick up a wrench or two. What I read from the links provided by CCM is that there already is plug-n-play system in existence and the company is right here in Michigan ( ! ). It's been apply to scooters already in the Olympics so they are just looking for OEM customers at the moment.
What if we get together to provide the initial customer base?
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Post by mx5tc on Oct 21, 2008 12:04:26 GMT -5
Dtws,
How many vehicles have you tuned with EFI systems??? How many were modified from stock? This isn't a matter of turning wrenches...it is a matter of software programming and systems integration; assuming you are have a good working knowledge of how a speed density or MAP or MAF EFI system works.
As for the ElectroJet TBI system; it is interesting but it is currently a system designed for OEMs! Look carefully at the datasheet on the website and you'll note that the specs are very general, there is no visible user interface (USB or serial port) for programming the system by an end user. The OEMs will hardcode a microprocessor on the circuit board to fit their specific application and also supply an Electrojet specific harness and ignition system (current PCB looks to small to have ignition drivers on it).
Hopefully, Electrojet or a competitor will release an aftermarket TBI system that is user programmable and has a universal wiring harness. Not much you can do with the current system.
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Post by harrywr2 on Oct 21, 2008 12:10:10 GMT -5
Hopefully, Electrojet or a competitor will release an aftermarket TBI system that is user programmable and has a universal wiring harness. Not much you can do with the current system. If they actually pick up a contract for selling EFI to Chinese manufacturers it will bleed over to the US as an aftermarket kit fairly quickly. They need a major OEM to get to a "Production Quantity" cost base.
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Post by mx5tc on Oct 21, 2008 14:28:19 GMT -5
Hopefully, Electrojet or a competitor will release an aftermarket TBI system that is user programmable and has a universal wiring harness. Not much you can do with the current system. If they actually pick up a contract for selling EFI to Chinese manufacturers it will bleed over to the US as an aftermarket kit fairly quickly. They need a major OEM to get to a "Production Quantity" cost base. Not likely to happen soon. Just spent some time on the phone with Electrojet this afternoon. Their current focus is getting OEM contracts in place, they don't even plan on looking at aftermarket products for another year. Any system they develop for an OEM will be soup-to-nuts and include a proprietary ignition sensor (either crankshaft position or Cam Angle Sensor), proprietary harness to connect TBI to bike harness, proprietary ignition coil, O2 sensor wiring and proprietary programming specific to a powertrain etc. Not sure when one is first going to appear on a production Chinese or Taiwanese scoot but it is likely to be a while. Once a scoot has the system OEM, I suppose you could always try to order all the parts from a scoot with similar displacement & configuration as your own but that would get expensive quickly when you add up all the pieces you are going to need to buy from a dealer at retail (if they will even sell to you without an appropriate VIN): Throttle body ECU unit Wiring harness Crank/Cam Angle sensor O2 sensor ignition coil & harness high pressure fuel pump fuel pressure regulator & filter fuel return line plumbing Additionally, you would have no ability to tune or modify the fuel or ignition curves of the OEM sourced Electrojet because they will be hard coded into the PCM's EPROM. Electrojet is thinking about eventually going after the aftermarket Harley market; good choice for them with a large user base, common throttle body size (Keihin pattern) and an owner base that is inclined to spend heavily on upgrades. They haven't even thought about establishing a dealer network yet, so don't hold your breath waiting for 150cc scoot conversion. Kind of sad; it is really a slick product that has cleverly integrated TPS, MAP and IAT sensors as well as the PCM into one unit that has a CV carb size footprint. Mitch
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