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Post by mojo89 on Feb 11, 2013 23:24:52 GMT -5
I bought my 2012 taotao ATM50-a1 50cc bike 2 days ago from Dallas Power Sports, rode it home 20 miles, ran great though a little lean when idling. Rode it 10 miles the second day, no problems, noticed the lean idle is better after it warms up. Whined slightly from the tranny when maintaining speeds around 20 mph.
----------------Here's where the problem happened:
Third day, was riding for about 15 minutes around 20-30 mph, went about a mile and a half, didn't notice anything different in its operation, but suddenly I heard the engine bog down for a few strokes, and then cut off.
----------------What I've done so far:
The electric starter turns over strong, I tried kick starting it, and I can hear the piston turning with that same bogged down sound during both start methods.
After I walked it home, I checked the oil, air filter, and gas lines, they were fine, but I changed the spark plug because I noticed it wasn't sparking consistently. Spark is stronger now, but still doesn't always spark, have to jiggle and twist it inside its boot to get it to spark.
-----------What's next:
My next move is to replace the ignition coil, that is the cylindrical part that includes the spark plug boot and the thick wire that is connected to the cylinder, which has two contacts currently connected to a green and black wire that lead to the main wiring harness.(if I'm correct)
-------------More info
I was being nice to it too... Kept it under 30, only opened it up full once or twice and it ran well up to max speed, around 42 mph. Paced by a car, my speedometer says I'm going faster than his did.
I read a lot of articles on various forums, things I might try would be replacing the carb and vacuum tubes, last resort I'll take it to a mechanic. Any info on good ones in the northern Dallas Fort Worth area near Lewisville would be helpful.
Also, I have worked on 2stroke Chinese bicycle mounted engines, so anything analogous to those I would understand. I know there are some very intelligent people out there, thanks for reading and in advance for helping!
Specs:
bought from Dallas Power Sports on 11058 Harry Hines Blvd, Dallas, TX
1P39QMB engine number
new NGK cr7hsa spark plug, stock was a7tc
had 0.9 km when I bought it, now has 55 km on odometer
1 year warranty on engine only, 100 dollars to replace
30 day, 50 dollar-for-labor repair warranty from dealer(parts free)
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Post by skuttadawg on Feb 11, 2013 23:29:27 GMT -5
Adjust the valves
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Post by skuttadawg on Feb 11, 2013 23:31:35 GMT -5
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Post by mojo89 on Feb 11, 2013 23:36:22 GMT -5
I was afraid you'd send me that ALERT link. Wish I'd seen it 3 days ago. It's still kinda chilly out here, and the piston moves very freely with the kick start, so I don't think it's damaged. I'll wait a day to see if there are any new or more detailed suggestions before I order my new carb.
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Post by skuttadawg on Feb 11, 2013 23:39:26 GMT -5
Compression test . I had one of those POS and the dang piston cracked on day 2 and 6 weeks later it exploded
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Post by doomsday on Feb 11, 2013 23:45:57 GMT -5
Try taking your gas cap off and seeing if it starts. You could have a vacuum problem.
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Post by skuttadawg on Feb 11, 2013 23:48:54 GMT -5
I had a vacuum hose on the airbox come off which hurt it bad but was good one rehooked up
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Post by edfr on Feb 11, 2013 23:51:26 GMT -5
Does your carb have the FUEL RATIO MIXTURE available or is it PLUGGED? They set them really lean and now with the cold weather the motor needs a lot more fuel.
You can drill the plug out if it is plugged or get an after market carb with the Fuel Ratio Screw not plugged. As a temp fix until you can adjust the mixture cover some of the Air Inlet Filter holes one at a time if it has a tube with about 5 holes in it on the end to cut some air out to match the fuel it is getting now.
And also check your valve gaps you can set them both to .004 if that makes a CLATTER bring it down to .003 inchs. a TICKY TICKY is good CLATTERING is to loose.
Lefty
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Post by prodigit on Feb 12, 2013 0:15:02 GMT -5
I always use premium 93 oct fuel on these bikes. They don't get enough cooling.
I wrote TaoTao.us, and they don't recommend, but tell you to put 93 oct fuel in, as they say the scoot requires it. No sales site told me this.
Check the spark plug gap. Usually it's set too wide too.
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Post by edfr on Feb 12, 2013 0:37:47 GMT -5
93 octane is for high compression motors, the fuel does not ignite as fast in other words it slows the burn. The scoots get make more power using the 87 or 89 octane.
Lefty
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Post by mojo89 on Feb 12, 2013 1:29:46 GMT -5
skuttadawg - Compression seems fine since it has good torque at all speeds, not sure if that's a good indicator or not. Will a mechanic shop perform the test? The tool is like 40 bucks right? doomsday - Tried starting it after taking off the gas cap just now, gave me a nice loud backfire. Probably flooded from before when trying to start with throttle pulled. This might be a lead! Apparently it is sparking. Didn't start, though my ears are still ringing. skuttadawg - All the vacuum hoses appear to be clear and connected properly, I looked it over and blew through them when I got home the first time and the last time. edfr - My carb is the stock model, I can't open the thing without stripping the screws. I couldn't even find the carburetor overflow screw when I was troubleshooting using the generic owner manual pdf, I haven't taken the carb body off the intake manifold yet though. Probably will buy an aftermarket carb rather than try to mess with that thing after reading these forums though honestly. I will try blocking some of the air intake tomorrow morning, but it's getting late here. Thanks for the tip though, and I'll have to do some research before I attempt that valve gap procedure. prodigit - I'm not sure what octane is in the tank, but I still have it almost full from the dealer. The stock spark plug was gapped about .7 mm, horrible I know, and it looks a little older than 3 days. Won't say more about that, I don't like smack talking people I still might have to do business with. I set my new plug about .5 per the generic owner manual pdf I found on this forum though I've seen recommendations as low as .2, but I'm just trying to start it, I'll worry about performance later. That got me more consistent sparking on the old one too. Thank you all for your help, I'm going to bite the $50-plus-transport bullet and take it back to the dealer tomorrow. I'll post the results when I get them, goodnight and thanks again Joe ps edfr... the way I understand it, octane levels only affect the pressure it takes to make gasoline combust without spark, so if you put 87 in a motorcycle that needs 93, the gas in the compression chamber will ignite due to pressure before the piston reaches the chamber (not good unless you like explosions!). I have always thought that it really doesn't matter if you put high octane in an engine that doesn't require it, since the spark will ignite all octane levels no matter the compression ratio of the engine it's in, but different companies use more or less pure gas for their different grades and that matters. I don't really know what company is best, everyone who cares has their own preference.
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Post by edfr on Feb 12, 2013 2:21:01 GMT -5
Just telling you what the high octane does that is all, I do not know who told you that little motor needs 93 octane but they are flat out wrong. If you read in the manual to use 93 you probably do not know that their 93 octane in china is equivelant to 87 here. Just so you know the manuals they give you are garbage at best. Even bored out to the max you do not need 93 octane.
You can take whoever's advice you want makes no difference to me I try to tell it like it is and just try to help the people on here.
Lefty
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Post by wutzthedeal on Feb 12, 2013 5:55:45 GMT -5
I was running pure 93 in mine, then started testing to see if lower made a mpg or power difference. Test not over, but seems 89 is going to be best. Got a boost in mpg from 89 over 93 and I've lost power so far in my current test with 87. I'll run the series once again to try to spot flukes, but I have a feelin' it's 89 from here on out.
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Post by inuyasha on Feb 12, 2013 10:59:18 GMT -5
Just telling you what the high octane does that is all, I do not know who told you that little motor needs 93 octane but they are flat out wrong. If you read in the manual to use 93 you probably do not know that their 93 octane in china is equivelant to 87 here. Just so you know the manuals they give you are garbage at best. Even bored out to the max you do not need 93 octane. You can take whoever's advice you want makes no difference to me I try to tell it like it is and just try to help the people on here. Lefty Hi Lefty I agree 100 % You should always use the octane rating that your engine needs to run smoothly and with out any pre detonation For most stock scoots 87 to 89 octane is going to be just fine Now my Aprilia has a 12.5:1 compression ratio so i always use 93 or higher in her Take care and ride safely dear friend Yours Hank |
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Post by skuttadawg on Feb 12, 2013 11:45:41 GMT -5
My scooter dealer make buyers say a paper to only use premium and I goofed by putting in 87 and poof the piston cracked half a mile later what a POS . Ever since I only use premium mostly nonethanol when I can
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Post by millsc on Feb 12, 2013 11:56:02 GMT -5
I can't say what works best, i have used only 91 octane
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Post by skuttadawg on Feb 12, 2013 11:58:46 GMT -5
My Echarm has 13,500 miles and only had oil changes still hits 75 if I wind it out but try to stay at 60 to be easy on it . At 50 MPH it purrs like a kitten
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Post by mojo89 on Feb 12, 2013 12:05:32 GMT -5
I highly doubt my engine will start if I put a different grade of gas in it. Sorry for getting everyone off topic.
Covering the air intake one hole at a time with tape didn't seem to help, but it did backfire again so gas is getting in and igniting. I tried this just now it's about 46 degrees outside
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Post by mojo89 on Feb 12, 2013 13:14:02 GMT -5
I'm starting to wonder if it's the cdi box, it controls the timing of the spark correct? Why would it be sparking during the exhaust cycle?
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Post by edfr on Feb 12, 2013 14:21:29 GMT -5
You may want to check your timing maybe the woodruff key is damaged that holds the flywheel at the correct position and the timing is off. I have seen them just sheer right off even some damage the flywheels slot which then you need a new flywheel.
And yes it could be your CDI unfortunatley there is no way with everyday tools to test a CDI even a COIL. You need special equipment for those two to test them out. That is why when a no spark or weak spark is present you test the stator and the pickup coil if those are good then you narrowed the problem to the CDI or COIL. That is of course you tested that the CDI is not be grounded by the killswitch.
And yes as far as octane is concerned if your motor is in the 12+ compression ratio then high octane would be best so it does not detonate. You can also try a colder plug as well. But your basic chininese scoots the motors are in the 10+ ratio range.
Lefty
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Post by conorabc on Feb 12, 2013 14:54:44 GMT -5
I'm starting to wonder if it's the cdi box, it controls the timing of the spark correct? Why would it be sparking during the exhaust cycle? Wasted spark ignition system. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wasted_spark |
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Post by prodigit on Feb 12, 2013 16:16:56 GMT -5
Just telling you what the high octane does that is all, I do not know who told you that little motor needs 93 octane but they are flat out wrong. If you read in the manual to use 93 you probably do not know that their 93 octane in china is equivelant to 87 here. Just so you know the manuals they give you are garbage at best. Even bored out to the max you do not need 93 octane. You can take whoever's advice you want makes no difference to me I try to tell it like it is and just try to help the people on here. Lefty My experience, and the tao's performance indicate you NEED 93 oct fuel. Also, the TaoTao.us representative (technician) said to only fuel it with 93 oct. Not because of compression, but because the engine runs quite hot (probably does not get enough cooling). |
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Post by prodigit on Feb 12, 2013 16:31:11 GMT -5
I highly doubt my engine will start if I put a different grade of gas in it. Sorry for getting everyone off topic. Covering the air intake one hole at a time with tape didn't seem to help, but it did backfire again so gas is getting in and igniting. I tried this just now it's about 46 degrees outside Once an engine is broken, a different type of gas will not magically make it work, but it could have prevented breakdowns, when it was used from the beginning. |
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Post by edfr on Feb 12, 2013 16:32:44 GMT -5
Don't believe everything they say they go by the specs from the manufaturer. And what technican in the U.S said that Give me his telephone number I will call him in a minute.
Lefty
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Post by mojo89 on Feb 12, 2013 18:39:49 GMT -5
conorabc - Thanks for that, good information. It raises the question of why there is combustion on exhaust but not during compression. edfr and prodigit - I am going to take it to a repair shop and let them run those tests. It hurts my pride, but I need this thing to work immediately without much time or money invested. Hope you don't argue too much about octane while I'm gone, thank you both for your knowledge. I'll post what the shop tells me in a few days for posterity.
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Post by prodigit on Feb 12, 2013 19:42:34 GMT -5
Don't believe everything they say they go by the specs from the manufaturer. And what technican in the U.S said that Give me his telephone number I will call him in a minute. Lefty You can directly talk to me. Experience has shown that the Tao's perform more than 10% better on premium fuel compared to other fuels, and actually perform almost 20% better with BP Premium fuel over here (meaning top end goes from 42MPH stock, to ~50MPH). But if you want a technician to verify this comment, go to taotao.us and call them up. |
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Post by edfr on Feb 12, 2013 23:01:31 GMT -5
Don't believe everything they say they go by the specs from the manufaturer. And what technican in the U.S said that Give me his telephone number I will call him in a minute. Lefty You can directly talk to me. Experience has shown that the Tao's perform more than 10% better on premium fuel compared to other fuels, and actually perform almost 20% better with BP Premium fuel over here (meaning top end goes from 42MPH stock, to ~50MPH). Not a problem PRODIGIT, Give me the TAOTAO.US Technican in the U.S that said this. I try to stay out of threads and post because just like this one after I explained what does what and why I am asked to talk directly to the person that said something that is now biting him in the butt. I am not your young person that doesn't know this stuff, these are simple 1 cylinder small motors with very simple carbs and cvts and trannies. The mess on the scoots is the electrical system on them. And the only thing that is really bad are the cheap connectors and sockets and wireing they use. If they would upgrade that part they would eliminate 3/4 of the problems. To many make up so many unbelieveable stories it is laughable. I know why they do it and the experienced and knowledgeable people do as well. Some of the knowledge and experienced people will ask the person to explain or prove it and I can tell you NONE to this point have, WONDER WHY. Just remember everybody there is no shame in not knowing something or anything about a scoot. How do you think other people learned by asking questions and working on it guided by someone that has gone through it for himself or herself. Lefty |
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Post by edfr on Feb 12, 2013 23:07:44 GMT -5
Ah, see you changed your post, I expected as much. But I was a little ahead of you and I did call them and guess what they go by what the manufacturer suggests and they suggest 93 BUT here is the kicker it is the 93 octane in their country which is what I said their 93 is our 87 and he agreed.
Lefty
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Post by mojo89 on Feb 12, 2013 23:28:05 GMT -5
good to know for sure, thanks for doin the research and for the entertainment lol
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Post by millsc on Feb 13, 2013 1:05:54 GMT -5
i'm still gonna use 91, just saying
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