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Post by EPAhater on Feb 2, 2013 22:56:14 GMT -5
Well, I've been busy and have been unaware of this fiasco, until I started looking into why the "new" site hasn't had much traffic at all. Now I know why. "Legal" is looking into it? Yeah right. I have several masters in computer science, internet security, online privacy, etc. and I do know that 99.99% of all "Terms of Service" agreements are UNENFORCEABLE. You cannot have a CONTRACT without positive agreement on both sides. A contract cannot be "one sided". If anyone ever took Proboards to actual court Proboards would lose. Regardless, I posted here to help people out. I could care less what fiduciary agreement between Lee and Proboards exists or doesn't exist. I was planning on restarting Askit.mainelyscooters.com (after removing the virus code, it got Wordpress hacked) and get it up and running. Seems to be a good time to do that. Greg The TOS is an agreement in itself, simple when you register, you are to read and "agree" to the TOS, if not then you are now allowed to join, that itself is a binding contract. Contracts are easy, if I agree to buy your horse for $100 cash in front of a witness and by a simple handshake you agree to sell me that horse for the $100 cash if either of us wants to back out then it again must both be agreed on for us both to do so. If I say no I want the horse that you agreed to sell me for $100 cash and have my money in my hand and you don't comply you're in breach of contract. It's enforceable in court with no written contract signed. By your membership alone you have signed the TOS and agreed to comply to its rules. It's not one sided, they offered it to you, you accept and it binds the both of you to it's terms. They're offering the horse and it's your choice to see if you want to ride it, that's a two way street.
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Post by EPAhater on Feb 2, 2013 23:00:54 GMT -5
Well, I've been busy and have been unaware of this fiasco, until I started looking into why the "new" site hasn't had much traffic at all. Now I know why. "Legal" is looking into it? Yeah right. I have several masters in computer science, internet security, online privacy, etc. and I do know that 99.99% of all "Terms of Service" agreements are UNENFORCEABLE. You cannot have a CONTRACT without positive agreement on both sides. A contract cannot be "one sided". If anyone ever took Proboards to actual court Proboards would lose. Regardless, I posted here to help people out. I could care less what fiduciary agreement between Lee and Proboards exists or doesn't exist. I was planning on restarting Askit.mainelyscooters.com (after removing the virus code, it got Wordpress hacked) and get it up and running. Seems to be a good time to do that. Greg With all of this: I have several masters in computer science, internet security, online privacy, How could this possibly happen? ;D it got Wordpress hacked
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Post by medman1952 on Feb 3, 2013 0:00:51 GMT -5
One element that is in your example is a bit different than this one here.
No money is exchanging hands between the members and Mike or between Mike and Proboards.
In your example if the horse buyer has to spend $1,000.00 for a horse because the person backed out of the deal selling his horse for $100.00, forces the buyer to spend more money. The buyer can sue the non selling owner he had an agreement with for the balance of the cost of the new horse.
At least that is how is was explained to me at some time in the past.
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Post by "Big Guy" on Feb 3, 2013 2:02:13 GMT -5
The TOS is an agreement in itself, simple when you register, you are to read and "agree" to the TOS, if not then you are now allowed to join, that itself is a binding contract. Well... not really. There is doctrine of privity of contract, in contract law which is being used now in the digital age, and as part of this doctrine, a contract is enforceable only by the parties that made the original agreement. Recent Cybercases have stood on the fact that, while you have in fact pressed a submit button on the site, you made an agreement with no person. Recent advances in the case law prove the only way around this is a *second* page, after the TOS, where you swear an oath, and sign a subsequent agreement affirming that you have read the TOS and actually type your name or initials into a text box. Once you typed your name into the box and hit submit on the second page, it becomes a binding contract. You'll notice the IRS will now make you do this if you submit an e-file return this year. Only to the point where you can prove damages. All contracts have a right to rescission, if not written, implied by local or state statute. This is usually anywhere between 24 and 72 hours depending on the property in the contract unless the words "as is" are used. As Doug said, if you cause me to loose money because you backed out of the deal, well that would be the damages that you can sue for. The law is a funny thing... the reason I never took the Bar or wanted to practice was, after you go through law school, you realize that every case is winnable. The way in which you win is, finding a way around the law. In essence, you never really do what's right to succeed, rather you do what it takes to win. The only successful attorney is a scumbag, unless you want to be an underpaid prosecutor all your life and I didn't want to go down that path. Politicians and attorneys are the two careers where in order to be a success, you must be an accomplished liar! I personally believe in an eye for an eye. If you damage my bumper, I will not sue you if you replace it. I had surgery on my foot in 1992 and the doctor put in the wrong prosthesis. He had to redo the surgery and made me sign papers not to sue him -- he didn't believe I wouldn't. But I told him, if you did it wrong, do it again, and all you have to pay for is time off from work. This crap going on today where people are getting six figures for spilling hot coffee on their lap has to stop! Besides, the whole, "who's board is it" is over now anyway. There will be no lawsuits, and there never was even the slightest chance of one. I could write a stripping script in about 4 hours and strip every piece of data from this site and launch a new one, and no one would do a thing about it. This whole topic is nothing more than an exercise in futility... -Rich
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Post by EPAhater on Feb 3, 2013 9:16:28 GMT -5
One element that is in your example is a bit different than this one here. No money is exchanging hands between the members and Mike or between Mike and Proboards. In your example if the horse buyer has to spend $1,000.00 for a horse because the person backed out of the deal selling his horse for $100.00, forces the buyer to spend more money. The buyer can sue the non selling owner he had an agreement with for the balance of the cost of the new horse. At least that is how is was explained to me at some time in the past. Well not quite so? By Mike's own admission of he spent a ton of money on this, money did exchange hands if that's what did happen and Lee (Dawg) is/was a member of this forum. How it was done we don't know but it would seem that it was money from Mike to Lee (a member) and then the forum was moved. And on the seller asking more for the horse after agreeing to sell it for $100 again would be a winnable case by the agreement. Where I live if you have to sue for anything the loser has to pay all court costs and in most cases attorney fees, that has helped stop a lot of the trivial lawsuits, can't win and lose you pay the price. So in this case you would not fork over an extra $900 to a person who agreed at $100 and then go get an attorney, you would use the $900 to sue, get the horse and then leave the seller with all the costs and a lesson on keeping his word. ;D
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Post by EPAhater on Feb 3, 2013 9:22:34 GMT -5
The TOS is an agreement in itself, simple when you register, you are to read and "agree" to the TOS, if not then you are now allowed to join, that itself is a binding contract. Well... not really. There is doctrine of privity of contract, in contract law which is being used now in the digital age, and as part of this doctrine, a contract is enforceable only by the parties that made the original agreement. Recent Cybercases have stood on the fact that, while you have in fact pressed a submit button on the site, you made an agreement with no person. Recent advances in the case law prove the only way around this is a *second* page, after the TOS, where you swear an oath, and sign a subsequent agreement affirming that you have read the TOS and actually type your name or initials into a text box. Once you typed your name into the box and hit submit on the second page, it becomes a binding contract. You'll notice the IRS will now make you do this if you submit an e-file return this year. Only to the point where you can prove damages. All contracts have a right to rescission, if not written, implied by local or state statute. This is usually anywhere between 24 and 72 hours depending on the property in the contract unless the words "as is" are used. As Doug said, if you cause me to loose money because you backed out of the deal, well that would be the damages that you can sue for. The law is a funny thing... the reason I never took the Bar or wanted to practice was, after you go through law school, you realize that every case is winnable. The way in which you win is, finding a way around the law. In essence, you never really do what's right to succeed, rather you do what it takes to win. The only successful attorney is a scumbag, unless you want to be an underpaid prosecutor all your life and I didn't want to go down that path. Politicians and attorneys are the two careers where in order to be a success, you must be an accomplished liar! I personally believe in an eye for an eye. If you damage my bumper, I will not sue you if you replace it. I had surgery on my foot in 1992 and the doctor put in the wrong prosthesis. He had to redo the surgery and made me sign papers not to sue him -- he didn't believe I wouldn't. But I told him, if you did it wrong, do it again, and all you have to pay for is time off from work. This crap going on today where people are getting six figures for spilling hot coffee on their lap has to stop! Besides, the whole, "who's board is it" is over now anyway. There will be no lawsuits, and there never was even the slightest chance of one. I could write a stripping script in about 4 hours and strip every piece of data from this site and launch a new one, and no one would do a thing about it. This whole topic is nothing more than an exercise in futility... -Rich The TOS is an agreement in itself, simple when you register you are to read and to the TOS, if not then you are now allowed to join, that itself is a binding contract. The law is a funny thing... the reason I never took the Bar or wanted to practice was, after you go through law school, you realize that every case is winnable. The way in which you win is, finding a way around the law. In essence, you never really do what's right to succeed, rather you do what it takes to win. The only successful attorney is a scumbag, unless you want to be an underpaid prosecutor all your life and I didn't want to go down that path. Politicians and attorneys are the two careers where in order to be a success, you must be an accomplished liar!Exactly. ;D I could write a stripping script in about 4 hours and strip every piece of data from this site and launch a new one, and no one would do a thing about it.So it should be ready by this afternoon after lunch, the Superbowl and dinner? ;D This whole topic is nothing more than an exercise in futility...Yes very much so but it's at least nice to see that it can be discussed in a way that is not unfriendly. People have opinions and it doesn't matter who's right or wrong, just to state the opinion as a discussion and all be friendly at the end of the day is nice. I myself learn a lot from other people's thoughts and opinions and some great points were made here , that's for sure.
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Post by lovemy2strokes on Feb 3, 2013 10:25:07 GMT -5
Its just rumor I suppose but I saw him say that he made an offer the old owner couldnt refuse and he made an investment he would like to get a return out of. If there wasnt any monetary barter what exactly did he invest and what kind of offer did he make? The major issue here is that you guys are quoting federal law(old fed law) and not local or state which the supposed crime happened. In the end if any of us wanted to sue him for using our intellectual property we can and would win. Its clear the TOS had been breached and then we were imposed into signing our rights away resigning another TOS which intervened with the original TOS that protected our IP from the latter. Either way you look at it it was not done in a legal manner and it comes down to who has more money to stay in court both locally and federally. In this day and age where people are being sued(and LOSE) over the name of a mascot I would highly suggest before stealing my intellectual property to at least ask and not just do it. Just out of spite some people may still do this, and win. I just think someone who did all this may possibly need to make a public announcement that he or she is sorry for trying to commit fraud. Instead theyre acting like they did nothing wrong. Inheritable this is a trait of cowardice and unsavory behavior and Im not sure this is who I would want as a moderator or someone who has access to my personal information. The law is there to protect us, not to be tread on and thrown to the way side.
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Post by EPAhater on Feb 3, 2013 10:59:08 GMT -5
The major issue here is that you guys are quoting federal law(old fed law) and not local or state which the supposed crime happened.
Federal law supersedes state law but you would have sue him in your county of your state and serve him notice in his county and state.
Then he might hit you with the Federal law. ;D
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Post by rapidjim on Feb 3, 2013 11:08:17 GMT -5
This has been a very long week. I really think, in hindsight, that if Mike and Lee had just transferred ownership here, Mike then introduced himself to the members as the new ADMIN, posted here as he designed the new site, then asked the members what they thought to a new board with new software, then proposed a move, and asked who wanted their info/posts transferred, All would have gone smoothly without all the hard feelings. The way in which it was done, does raise a lot of questions. All that two boards with the same name and different extensions does is cause issues, which we all have seen first hand. I also feel some of the conversations/requests were not taken in the light that they were meant and that the defensive mechanism stepped in and made it worse. In other words " What we have here is a failure to communicate".
IMO, now that the smoke has died down to embers we can all get back to what we do best, helping each other and have conversations.
Jim
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Post by inuyasha on Feb 3, 2013 12:12:19 GMT -5
This has been a very long week. I really think, in hindsight, that if Mike and Lee had just transferred ownership here, Mike then introduced himself to the members as the new ADMIN, posted here as he designed the new site, then asked the members what they thought to a new board with new software, then proposed a move, and asked who wanted their info/posts transferred, All would have gone smoothly without all the hard feelings. The way in which it was done, does raise a lot of questions. All that two boards with the same name and different extensions does is cause issues, which we all have seen first hand. I also feel some of the conversations/requests were not taken in the light that they were meant and that the defensive mechanism stepped in and made it worse. In other words " What we have here is a failure to communicate". IMO, now that the smoke has died down to embers we can all get back to what we do best, helping each other and have conversations. Jim Hi Jim I agree, havent we beaten this poor dead horse more then enough Take care and ride safely Yours Hank
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Post by erictheviking666 on Feb 3, 2013 12:30:26 GMT -5
So if scootdawg.net is not going to be used. Are you going to upgrade to Proboards v5 version for this site?
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Post by amac1680 on Feb 3, 2013 15:30:10 GMT -5
A note on TOS. They are unilateral and allow the opperator to make changes to it at anytime. Just because it read one way when you signed up doesn't mean it says the same today. It is designed to protect the forum opperator not so for the member.
It doesn't matter to me but this forum updated the TOS on January 21, 2013.
Be Big, AMAC
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Post by medman1952 on Feb 3, 2013 16:27:41 GMT -5
So if scootdawg.net is not going to be used. Are you going to upgrade to Proboards v5 version for this site? That is up to the admin.
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Post by dudley on Feb 3, 2013 17:26:00 GMT -5
I don't think you can sue and win. The content on a public forum is just that. Our forum posts have no monetary value, what could you sue for? We have lost no money and he has yet to gain any. All the arguing has done is move us back to a forum that just a couple weeks ago we complained about. We should have embraced the change, once we got an explanation.if you dont like the way it was done that is fair, but either way, mike is in charge. Get used to it.
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Post by scootnwinn on Feb 3, 2013 17:53:31 GMT -5
Its a good thing I'm not the dead horse that is being whipped as I am sure that horse is nearly atomized by now. Anyone here own a scooter or are we all just a bunch of wanna be lawyers. I bled my brakes and washed and waxed mine today anyone here do anything to theirs or has controversy consumed you. Get over it the net guys lost and were back pass the crow and humble pie and lets go for a ride
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Post by inuyasha on Feb 3, 2013 18:06:59 GMT -5
Its a good thing I'm not the dead horse that is being whipped as I am sure that horse is nearly atomized by now. Anyone here own a scooter or are we all just a bunch of wanna be lawyers. I bled my brakes and washed and waxed mine today anyone here do anything to theirs or has controversy consumed you. Get over it the net guys lost and were back pass the crow and humble pie and lets go for a ride Hi I took a ride and then set up my super bowl bash which we are all enjoying right now as we speak Take care and ride safely Yours Hank
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Post by leo on Feb 3, 2013 18:52:39 GMT -5
Its a good thing I'm not the dead horse that is being whipped as I am sure that horse is nearly atomized by now. don't you believe it. that ol' horse will get up and wobble down the road for the next week or so before someone blasts it with a howitzer. all this talk of TOS and "i'll sue" is getting ridiculous. scootdawg is back home.
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Post by EPAhater on Feb 3, 2013 20:19:36 GMT -5
Its a good thing I'm not the dead horse that is being whipped as I am sure that horse is nearly atomized by now. Anyone here own a scooter or are we all just a bunch of wanna be lawyers. I bled my brakes and washed and waxed mine today anyone here do anything to theirs or has controversy consumed you. Get over it the net guys lost and were back pass the crow and humble pie and lets go for a ride Wow! I thought this was the last one? scootdawg.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=general&action=display&thread=57683Now aren't you a trip sunshine? You just rave and rant about how things were so much better and no one did this and did that and now you're back and telling people here about beating a dead horse? It's not a horse.
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Post by medman1952 on Feb 3, 2013 21:10:56 GMT -5
I have not heard a word from Mike, I don't know what he wants me to do or not to do.
I've tried to post a few times that we should just all get on with life.
Closing the thread. If I'm not allowed to do such things anymore, I will find out.
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