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Post by jlee on Dec 1, 2012 13:47:03 GMT -5
Agreed - all this dreamed up theory doesn't change the fact that the front brake on ANY two-wheeled vehicle has significantly more stopping power than the rear. I think the huge part that is being missed is that even rear braking will compress the front fork. What this should tell you is the weight of the bike is moving forward. The bike is ditributing its weight forward just like a car would. Continuing on the rear brake, as the rear gets lighter, can lead to lockup, but also in an emergency avoiding the front brake either choice or by bad habit loses most of your stopping power as all the traction is going to the front wheel. The physics are all explained very clearly in Proficient Motorcycling to a degree better than in the MSC. I was very glad people on this board recommended the book and glad I read it. I was all too relying too much on the rear before. So much so I kept locking the rear during panic stops in the course until they corrected me. Easier to do with your weight on a foot brake though. Yes, the simple explanation is that ANY braking action decelerates the bike, which loads the front wheel (more traction) and unloads the rear (less traction). Simple physics, and PM goes into it in great detail.
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Post by sharks06lly on Dec 1, 2012 13:50:47 GMT -5
Agreed - all this dreamed up theory doesn't change the fact that the front brake on ANY two-wheeled vehicle has significantly more stopping power than the rear. I think the huge part that is being missed is that even rear braking will compress the front fork. What this should tell you is the weight of the bike is moving forward. The bike is ditributing its weight forward just like a car would. Continuing on the rear brake, as the rear gets lighter, can lead to lockup, but also in an emergency avoiding the front brake either by choice or by bad habit loses most of your stopping power as all the traction is going to the front wheel. If you avoid or lightly use the front brake in a panic stop, the distance increases dramatically. A few feet can be the difference from plowing into the side of a left turning van or missing it entirely. The physics are all explained very clearly in Proficient Motorcycling to a degree better than in the MSC. I was very glad people on this board recommended the book and glad I read it. I was all too relying too much on the rear before. So much so I kept locking the rear during panic stops in the course until they corrected me. Easier to do with your weight on a foot brake though. The book is about $20 on Amazon. that right there is exactly what i mean. it doesnt matter if your prepared for it or not when you brake you shift weight off the rear tire and towards the front which gives more traction( which would in turn allow for more braking) and less to the rear which means it can lockup quite easily. i agree it is quite easy to lockup the rear when you are putting your weight into it with your foot lol
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Post by jwalz1 on Dec 1, 2012 13:54:54 GMT -5
Watch this video. Disregard the fact the guy is on a crotch rocket and a heavy lean angle, just pay attention to the rear wheel slide followed by it regaining traction. Because if you are overusing the rear brake and laying off the front, a rear wheel slide is what can happen and the result may be the same. His helmet saved him, even at the relatively slow speed. www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Qi2sq94aKACracked his helmet right where the brain stem is.
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Post by jlee on Dec 1, 2012 14:04:45 GMT -5
New riders gain a false sense of security because they mostly brake when the bike is fully upright and the wheels are parallel. In that situation, it doesn't much matter which brake you use except for stopping distance. Even if a wheel locks up, you are simply going to slide forward.
If the bike is leaning even a little bit and you need to stop or slow quickly, you will go down if you don't know the proper braking techniques.
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Post by sharks06lly on Dec 1, 2012 15:29:21 GMT -5
sigh i feel as if everyone including myself needs to just give up on any attempt to follow the teachings of msf that have saved thousands if not more lives riding motorcycles or scooters and follow prodigit's totally unproven and egocentric attitude on every subject regarding safe riding on a 2 wheeled vehicle.
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meelee
New Puppy Dawg
Posts: 2
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Post by meelee on Dec 1, 2012 15:49:11 GMT -5
I believe that all this bickering does not really address the issues at hand. Talk about the issues, rather than trying to offend the drivers please!
I see some good in Prodigit's posts, because at least he tells things the way he sees things. Some users on this forum seem to only tell what they've been taught, without even knowing why they do things the way they do things.
At least I must say Prodigit's posts have always been enlightening to me, and helped me see a lot of things I did not know before;
I'd say to not discredit something, unless you'd have a valuable reason to do so (and a valuable reason does not mean you don't like the other person); and explain that reason. Discuss all you want, and elaborate on your reasons, but don't go fighting each other!
We're all scootards here!
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Post by jlee on Dec 1, 2012 16:00:39 GMT -5
Some users on this forum seem to only tell what they've been taught, without even knowing why they do things the way they do things. We KNOW why we do it that way - because it's the only way that works! There is very little room for personal opinion when it comes to braking safely. It has been studied, analyzed, and documented over millions of miles of road testing. The results have been published and are taught universally. If someone like prodigit wants to challenge those findings on his own bike, go ahead. I hope he survives all the crashes. What I don't appreciate is the spewing of senseless ideas in the guise of so-called experience, and trying to pass it off as truth.
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Post by wutzthedeal on Dec 1, 2012 16:05:40 GMT -5
Anything that can get a rider hurt is an immediate red flag for me. My buddy was following me the other day when he wrecked. He's a new rider; he was on a Goldwing and I was on my scooter. He was going around a curve and his rear wheel slid out from under him. His helmet is destroyed and the bike is banged up. He could barely talk with the bruised ribs/lungs. I cannot stand by and let others see bad advice or misleading advice and not say anything. When I first got my scooter, I'd believe anything you told me, and if I were going out for the day and I had read that one post of prodigit's, my thinking as a new rider would have been, "I'll just not use the front brake until I really need it." Because that cannot be habit yet with a new rider, and the rear brake is not as responsive as the front brake, this could be the difference between rolling out a few feet in front of a tractor trailer that is going 70mph vs. stopping. I have nothing against you at all, prodigit; that just scares the daylights out of me to see that type of advice that a newb may take as the gospel.
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Post by wutzthedeal on Dec 1, 2012 16:23:43 GMT -5
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Post by scootnwinn on Dec 1, 2012 17:01:29 GMT -5
Wow this is amazing. Just wow I don't think I can even respond. All I can say is that any one taking advice from someone who thinks you can walk around the world should have their head examined. He does make a lot of complicated bogus explanations of his thoughts but they are based on a set of rules not in operation on this planet. God bless you all take the time to learn from proven experts not some guy on the internet who you have never even seen on a motorcycle.
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Post by jlee on Dec 1, 2012 17:31:56 GMT -5
All I can say is that any one taking advice from someone who thinks you can walk around the world should have their head examined. Be careful or you'll be accused of not thinking out of the box. Hey, in his world, the laws of physics don't apply - I'm sure we'll be told how easy it is to walk on water and that it has been statistically proven to be more efficient than any other form of walking.
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Post by scootnwinn on Dec 1, 2012 17:43:36 GMT -5
All I can say is that any one taking advice from someone who thinks you can walk around the world should have their head examined. Be careful or you'll be accused of not thinking out of the box. Hey, in his world, the laws of physics don't apply - I'm sure we'll be told how easy it is to walk on water and that it has been statistically proven to be more efficient than any other form of walking. Yes I'm sure he knows already how I'm wrong
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Post by scootnwinn on Dec 1, 2012 21:21:28 GMT -5
A brilliant rebuttal however improper clarinet playing will make people want to kill you other than that perfect
It is clear he either has little or no experience on motorcycles he claimed he had a CBR 900RR questionable helmetless riding might get you by on a small scooter but a machine like that is far less forgiving of questionable piloting practices I really have no idea how he survived it...
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Post by scootnwinn on Dec 1, 2012 22:54:32 GMT -5
Oh hogwash no one was making fun of you we were explaining why you were wrong we tried statistics, you said whatever you have yours I have mine but never provided any. We used an example in racing scooters you ignored it. We have generally given up arguing with you because you will never admit you are wrong. The only reason I said anything here is because in this case your thoughts and opinions can be deadly. I don't. Have a problem with you or any one else in this forum when you said that the weight distribution was different on a scooter I spent quite a bit of time looking into your claims. Bottom line though you are the one who generally begins the attacks any time you are contradicted there are lots of examples in this board of you doing that lots and lots so don't start with this oh woe is me garbage you had a group of seasoned experienced people contradict you and you refused to learn we weren't cahooting with eachother to prove you wrong you were just wrong learn and move on.
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Post by scootnwinn on Dec 1, 2012 22:57:37 GMT -5
Also I only see exchanges like this happen when you are involved no one else
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Post by skuttadawg on Dec 2, 2012 1:00:50 GMT -5
Heres the deal , use both brakes but apply the rear first and SLOWLY pull in the lever to avoid a lock up . Front brakes can be 60 to 70 % of the braking power , as to why the front pads wear out at a much faster rate on a car . Many scooters have a hydraulic disc on the front with a cabled drum . The disc is superior in every way not to mention easier to service since the wheel does not need to be removed and hydraulic has more clamping force than via cable . I can use both or only one lever with ease , in fact I have practiced panic stops with only one and both levers on all of my scooters in order to get a feel of how they work . All 3 have F&R discs and all three have their own abilities and differences . None have ABS nor do I need it since I know how to ride with many years on and off road riding experience . I had an off road motorcycle that had no brakes , throttle cable had a pair of Vise Grips on it and clutch cable was broken . I got it for almost nothing and was very tricky to ride until I did repairs on it . If you work on cars , like I do , and notice peoples driving habits , you will see how women tend to ride the brakes WAY too much . Holding down on the brakes builds up heat which can warp the rotor and glaze the pads . I use the tranny drag in the CVT to slow down instead of using brakes and I slowly pull in the levers for a second then release and again just before coming to a stop . I have over 13,000 miles on the original brake pads on my Echarm and it can still stop on a dime . The brakes on my Echarm are perfect . My Magnum man they are overkill as it will sling my off off the seat under severe hard braking and the levers are very firm to pull in . The rear disc has pistons on BOTH sides where most are a floater with piston(s) one one side only . My Rock Thunder and my friends RT the brakes are soft and no where as good even with the brake fluid replaced and bled.
One of my good friends got his first motorized two wheeler last year a TaoTao ATMa 50 like I had . He had never even ridden a scooter or motorcycle in his life so I had to give him tips and riding lessons which include panic situation simulations to have him prepared in case of an emergency . He was always wanting to use the brakes to slow down since he was a noob and nervous , but I taught him how to use the tranny drag and ride it out in turns below top speed and when going downhill .
One should know their abilities and limits as well as that of their ride . EVERY time I ride someones two wheeler I test the brakes independently BEFORE I go anywhere to see how they work instead of finding out at the last second they do not work good .
My Echarm can hit 75 on the speedo and I got pulled over for doing 72 on an interstate by a cool cop who gave me a warning ticket since I am legal , had on a helmet , had my college parking sticker on back , I was polite and mostly because he was curious to see what kind of scooter I had that went that fast since he rode motorcycles himself . Doing 70 on a motorcycle is a cakewalk since almost any of them can go to speeds above that . Now going 70 on a China scooter is stunt riding with crappy tires and wimpy suspensions . I can cruise at 50 to 60 all day with ease on the engine and in comfort where above 60 it would get sketchy since too much of the weight is on the rear instead of having enough on the front to help hold the front tire firmly against the road surface . Going that fast a sudden change of wind direction or a draft from a large truck can move us around or at least make it unstable . I often sit upright since my Echarm is large enough for me to where my TaoTao I was too tall and had to hunch over and my Magnum is in between and quite cozy . When going above 60 MPH I tend to lean down with my helmet behind the mini windshield to allow air to flow over me instead of into me which causes drag . When braking I sit upright and it does make a difference . The faster you go the longer it takes to stop and you need to increase the space between you and other traffic to be safe . I have ridden motorcycles on interstates and tail gate a semi real close ( dangerous not suggested to try ) and I could pull in the clutch and the draft had enough vacuum to pull me down the road . I heard about it and did not believe it would do this so I had to test and see for myself if it was true . I have had dump trucks blow me all over the road as to why I say to people to let off the throttle , duck down , and maybe some light braking BEFORE they pass in ether direction .
Telling people to only use the rear brakes is bad advice since the front is around 60 or more of the brake bias and both brakes are designed to work together . Remember to apply the rear brakes first then the front with a slow but firm squeeze of the lever . Pulling in the levers at a fast rate increases the chances of locking up the tire . On scooters is it is not that hard to slide the rear tire and the brakes are not strong enough to do a front endo or reverse wheelie like stunt riders on street bikes . Cabled drums the cable can stretch and will break when worn ( I know I have broken a few ) and they do not have the stopping power of a disc . I have had motorcycle with rear drums but they used a rod instead of cable with a foot lever instead of a hand one .
Before you decide to do a high speed run like 70 MPH make sure to get to know your scooters abilities , how it handles and brakes on an open road with no traffic before riding in heavy traffic
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Post by jlee on Dec 2, 2012 1:30:19 GMT -5
Prodigit, I wish you well. If you survive your next panic stop, misjudged corner, or sudden loss of traction, I hope you will come back and tell us how you did it.
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Post by skuttadawg on Dec 2, 2012 1:47:59 GMT -5
I have no problems braking in turns at all since I ride upright instead of knee scraping like those on crotch rockets who have way more power and speed . To be safe you should always be ready for the unexpected BS from idiots on the road as well as a dog , rock or tire blowout .
Wet braking you need even more distance , wet pads do not stop as good , and hard stock tires do not grip as good as premium name brand tire . You really have to watch out for leaves and loose gravel on the road as I have had quite a few almost wrecks . Bumps can be bad too since scooters bounce where a motorcycle does not .
I had the tires on my Echarm balanced and WOW it was so much smoother riding at high speeds and when braking too . Scooters come with the tires not balanced unlike cars that are balanced . Soon I will put some Pirelli SL26s on my Magnum that will be balanced . The stock tires are like a dual purpose tread pattern with some bounce effect like that of knobbies and that of a minibike but not like a suspension bounce like on my Echarm with wimpy shocks . I love the ride , handling and braking on my Magnum with 130/60/13s compared to my 16s and the 10s on my old scooter I had
A real important factor is to first have tires that are rated to go that fast as many are J rated which is up to 62 MPH and going even 50 is risky and above 62 an increased chance of tire failure like a blowout and can be fatal . The Pirellis are rated up to 93 MPH way beyond my Magums ability as I like to have tires that can support more than I deliver instead of riding on the edge of a razor blade pushing it to its limits or beyond . My Automotive Repair instructor said this , " If I only am able to teach you two things , ALWAYS get premium tires and brake pads and shoes in order to be safe " . He was a mechanic in the Army for 20 years and hated to see how too many put too much money into their stereo instead of keeping their car in tip top shape
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Post by onilegion on Dec 3, 2012 0:53:58 GMT -5
Hi all, Just check the laws on modulators in Missouri and surrounding states. They're not legal everywhere. They are now legal in all 50 states, as of October 1st, 2000: www.webbikeworld.com/Motorcycle-technical-articles/Modulator-regs.htmThis DOT statute makes it illegal for any state to try to legislate against them. Just make sure that the one you get meets all the specs outlined in the law. We and our hubby are using units made by Kisan Electronics (made in USA ). The unit is super easy to install and really does get you noticed by cage drivers. The only unexpected effect that both of us have noticed is that with our day-glow green motorcycle jackets and the pulsing high beam, some drivers when being approached from the rear assume that you are some sort of official safety or law enforcement vehicle and promptly pull off the road to let you pass. Darn! What a horrible side effect . Scoot safe, onilegion. <><
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Post by larrball on Dec 3, 2012 4:56:03 GMT -5
Dam Charles Even i couldn't start a Thread that could exelate.com/ this fast-- good job man !! Lol //Joke || ------------------------------------------------------ Oh ya, how was that ride? Ya butt-X O.K? Trip to Slater?
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Post by skuttadawg on Dec 3, 2012 9:54:28 GMT -5
No I tried the tire slides as scooters have most of the weight on the rear and the forks dive too
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Post by prodigit on Dec 3, 2012 13:00:23 GMT -5
Makes sense...
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Post by rockynv on Dec 3, 2012 13:12:41 GMT -5
The MSF instructors teach to refrain from using engine braking alone and always apply both brakes when stopping otherwise your brake lights will not come on to allert traffic behind you that you are stopping. They quoted a statistic which I can not remember off hand on how many bikes get rear ended each year due to using engine braking alone to slow down the bike without lighting the brake light and the number was quite a bit higher than I expected. They reccomend to learn to use both brakes appropriately at all times to control both stops and set-up/control the bikes balance in turns.
As to not leaning at all in turns that is risky in itself as the laws of physics can react badly when you fight them. You need to lean to one degree or another to work with the geometry of your bike, the arc of the curv and the speed at which you are traveling.
This is not my personal opinion but that of the US Motorcycle Safety Foundation and endorsed by the Florida State DOT.
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Post by inuyasha on Dec 3, 2012 14:42:18 GMT -5
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Post by chaz12 on Dec 3, 2012 14:48:18 GMT -5
Got back from my 234 mile ride yesterday. It was fun seeing other maxi scoots on the highway and motorcycles out in full force..
No, I never had a accident yet.... The License Bureau knows I am somewhat limitted and are fine with me riding.. But insurance wise, well it may make a difference. If they claim I should have been able to stop faster, if I had a adaptive hand lever.. But those adaptive hand levers cost $450 and up.. A mini fortune, to a guy on Soc Sec...
The rear brake is for balancing. The front brake is 70% of the braking power. If one locks up the front brake, they are more likely to loose control. I been braking on the back brake since 1993.. 20 years.. I am here, and able to laugh about the good time I had. I know the rear brake only gives about 30% of the braking force, but adapted to this by lengthening stopping distance between me and the car infront of me, cupping the rear brake to help with reaction time, look over my scoot often to make sure running correctly, checking brake fluid more frequently, do hit front brake sometimes( more a emergency brake verses one used everytime). See, I can grab much slower, but not fast enough in certian situation. Example: If using front brake when rear brake fails to work, when slowing down is a non emergency.. In a emergency situation, the front brake will probably not prevent me from getting into an accident. Too slow of a reaction time. But for a back up brake, it is fine..
Now I have thought of a braking system that uses one mastercyllender and two calipers, but I am sure this is unsafe because if the mastercyllender went out, well it leaves no emergency braking system. I really don't want to do this, because of this reason.
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Post by skuttadawg on Dec 3, 2012 17:17:02 GMT -5
I pulsate the lever in order to make the brake light flash at times when a car is close behind me
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Post by wutzthedeal on Dec 3, 2012 18:57:06 GMT -5
To all newer riders; do not listen to any of our personal opinions in this forum regarding safety--read the solidly-proven, fact-based advice given in the document Hank listed. It's that simple. Getting into a habit of ignoring your front brake will get you killed.
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Post by snugglebunny on Dec 3, 2012 20:19:31 GMT -5
i am so glad, that i have 30+ years of riding experience.
i dont know how i brake, ride,slow down, use the engine to slow me down, i really dont know. i just do it.
if i was a total newbie at riding, this thread would have me so confused, i, A, would stop riding, or B, probably get killed
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Post by chaz12 on Dec 3, 2012 21:26:21 GMT -5
Ya, on a manual you can down shift to slow down. On a scooter, stop giving throttle and the engine will slow down quickly.
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Post by rockynv on Dec 3, 2012 23:09:23 GMT -5
Why would that happen? Just don't lock up the rear wheel, by applying the brake correctly, and releasing it whe you feel the wheel losing grip. Prodigit - Do you have a reading deficit or possibly ADD? That is a sincere question. We make allowances for those who suffer from things like that and can understand how difficult it can be to cope. After reading about inappropriate engine braking on a manual shift bike where I mentioned that "you could loose control with a rear wheel lockup if you miss a gear and downshift inapproprately" you make the above comment about something different as a responce. When on a manual shift bike if you skip a gear or two down and let off the clutch abruptly you can be in for one wild ride that you may be committed to ride on through with, come what may. It has nothing to do with modulating the rear brake pedal on the manual shift bike that was being commented upon. Adding rear brake pedal at that point will be to keep the lockup going so you can ride it out. That is the danger with using engine braking too agressively on a manual shift bike. Once you downshift to the wrong gear and the rear end swings out you have to ride with it especially at higher speeds. Letting the wheel start spinning again even in a partial lockup from overuse of engine braking can flip the bike in less than a blink of an eye.
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