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Post by mainepeace on Sept 11, 2012 14:02:09 GMT -5
I sold $500 worth of parts to a Scootdawg member in Canada. He received the parts QUICKLY. Some of the parts didn't fit but it is his responsibility to check if the parts are the proper ones or not.
I billed extra for shipping to Canada. I made a mistake and billed twice for the original invoice amount. I issued a prompt REFUND with full verification of the funds transfer.
He emailed me that he received it.
2 months later he issued a chargeback for the whole $500+.
To me this is outright fraud. He has the parts, my time, AND my money.
Mainely Scooters is not a big faceless corporation like IBM or Vespa. I do not have unlimited funds. A $500 chargeback means I do not have enough money to pay my employees this week. Losing $500 at the end of the season when I will probably not sell another scooter until March HURTS ME SIGNIFICANTLY.
Yes, customers are just as bad as some dealers.
Greg
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Post by derbi on Sept 11, 2012 14:07:32 GMT -5
Thats terrible Greg, do you have any legal recourse or you stuck footing his bill? You have my best wishes that you get this rectified quickly and to your satisfaction.
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Post by tvnacman on Sept 11, 2012 14:14:44 GMT -5
I'm concerned about it happening to me too. I would like to know who it is so I can be on the look out.
John
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Post by Scooter Elements on Sept 11, 2012 14:19:00 GMT -5
Wow thats messed up! I do get customers that say they ordered the wrong part and usually if the item has not been installed and the packaging has not been destroyed i will refund after i get the item back but keeping the items and then doing that with his credit card company is just plain theft! Shipping to Canada is not cheap either. I shipped a pair of Oakley Glasses to a person in Canada and cost me $30.00 just for that small little item. Greg i hope you can resolve this issue! I understand losing $500.00 is not easy for us small businesses.
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Post by fugaziiv on Sept 11, 2012 14:54:30 GMT -5
Greg - This is called a "Friendly Fraud". I know, it is a dumb name, since in a face to face transaction it would be called theft. The issuing bank should have given you an opportunity to refute the chargeback claim. If they didn't before approving the chargeback you probably (maybe) have a case against them (the bank). The bottom line is that there are many dishonest people out there and unfortunately some of them ride scooters, and they get a 2 year (!) window to file a chargeback.
The biggest problem here is that once a chargeback is issued, there is very little recourse for the seller. The banks are supposed to be impartial as they investigate the claim, but very rarely in my experience has this proven to be true.
If the end customer is found to be committing fraud, then they can face all of the legal ramifications associated with fraudulent activity.
Matt
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Post by carasdad on Sept 11, 2012 15:06:48 GMT -5
Greg...I know how ya feel. I am small repair/parts shop myself. You probably remember my post a month ago. I ALWAYS get money upfront for any special order parts. This kid was a frequent customer..I trusted him and ordered $310.00 in performance parts. Called him when they came in....and he said he changed his mind. Never saw or heard from him again... NOW that was my fault....but what happened to you is fraud for sure. Hope you seek legal action..get your money back..then drive to Canada and kick his ss...
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Post by stiv625 on Sept 11, 2012 16:36:04 GMT -5
That is awful. just horrible to hear. I 2nd the "seek legal action..get your money back..then drive to Canada and kick his ss"
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Post by tvnacman on Sept 11, 2012 16:45:35 GMT -5
You could contact him and try cut down on the loss. Legal action will be even more of an expense.
John
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Post by Cookees on Sept 11, 2012 20:15:50 GMT -5
....so much for Canadians all being polite.
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Post by mainepeace on Sept 11, 2012 23:12:40 GMT -5
Well I woke up this morning to my bank account being $500 lighter. No phone calls or notification before it happened. I had to call my merchant services provider to get some info about the transaction.
The chargeback process just started so the credit card company "holds" (steals) the money while the dispute is investigated. After it has been resolved (sometimes weeks or even months later) I get my money back.
I have full documentation that it was purchased by the card issuer and wasn't a fraudulent charge. I have just submitted the docs and I'm sure it will be ruled in my favor.
I gave the guy a refund, fully documented, and an email from the guy saying he RECEIVED the refund. Open and shut in my book. I just can't make payroll this week unless I get a few more internet orders.
What's interesting is that YESTERDAY my corporate credit card got hit by fraud where a hacker tried to run up a dozen $250 charges. The first one went through (and it will be weeks before I get that money back) before the red flags went up and it was caught by the fraud department. I won't get a replacement card until tomorrow so it's been 2 days I've found it difficult to buy parts and fulfill customer orders. Just a pain in the ass.
Greg
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Post by stiv625 on Sept 12, 2012 0:22:03 GMT -5
I'm really sorry to hear all that, Greg You've been one hell of a great guy and business to work with in just the short time I've been around. You deserve so much better treatment with how trustworthy and responsible you are!! It often seems like the worst things happen to the best people but karma will come back around eventually
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Post by skuttadawg on Sept 12, 2012 0:22:27 GMT -5
Thats a bummer Greg since we all know your such a good guy . Maybe you could have where " all sales are final " after 7 days or so . That way it gives time for honest returns for example .
An independent auto part store in my area tells all new customers up front that his policy is " The customer is always wrong " after having so many return an item with a used part in it for a refund and he lost money . He says bring in the old part to compare with the new one since once you bought it , it is yours and no refunds .
I hate that PayPal and you could not do business as I have only heard great reviews from customers in situations like when an order did not get shipped and the custom got a fast refund .
Could that ( censored ) get charged with wire fraud ? Get Judge Judy to hate on him .
Since there is BBB and other sources to review businesses maybe someone can start a customer review service to red flag those with known BS like this
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Post by hardd1 on Sept 12, 2012 7:46:31 GMT -5
run the customers card again....you should still have the info
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Post by ericrockstar on Sept 12, 2012 10:09:55 GMT -5
If you started selling 250's I might be able to help you out. I'm so sick of looking at CL!
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Post by jimboeau on Sept 12, 2012 12:13:44 GMT -5
Sorry to hear this, Greg. I hope it gets all straightened up in your favor.
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Post by rapidjim on Sept 12, 2012 12:24:27 GMT -5
Well I woke up this morning to my bank account being $500 lighter. No phone calls or notification before it happened. I had to call my merchant services provider to get some info about the transaction. The chargeback process just started so the credit card company "holds" (steals) the money while the dispute is investigated. After it has been resolved (sometimes weeks or even months later) I get my money back. I have full documentation that it was purchased by the card issuer and wasn't a fraudulent charge. I have just submitted the docs and I'm sure it will be ruled in my favor. I gave the guy a refund, fully documented, and an email from the guy saying he RECEIVED the refund. Open and shut in my book. I just can't make payroll this week unless I get a few more internet orders. What's interesting is that YESTERDAY my corporate credit card got hit by fraud where a hacker tried to run up a dozen $250 charges. The first one went through (and it will be weeks before I get that money back) before the red flags went up and it was caught by the fraud department. I won't get a replacement card until tomorrow so it's been 2 days I've found it difficult to buy parts and fulfill customer orders. Just a pain in the ass. Greg Yep that is how chargebacks work. The customer notifies the CC company and the pull the funds and put them in an account until the retailer can reply and then a decision is made. I have seen this happen with another dealer. A person ordered a machine and then did a charge back long after he received the machine. The retailer provided their side of the story and the funds were given back to them. Basically the customer lied when giving information to the CC company for the charge back claim. Yes legal action can be taken against the customer for fraud. I do not agree with the CC company taking the funds in the first place but that is policy. Jim
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Post by Scooter Elements on Sept 12, 2012 13:05:44 GMT -5
its kinda like my Paypal account. All payments i get for my website and ebay are held in a pending balance for up to 21 days or until the item is delivered to the customer with no problems. Its been like that since the start of my website. Paypal sucks sometimes. But yea I hope you get your money back Greg and Quick!
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Post by kathineid on Sept 12, 2012 15:31:44 GMT -5
its kinda like my Paypal account. All payments i get for my website and ebay are held in a pending balance for up to 21 days or until the item is delivered to the customer with no problems. Its been like that since the start of my website. Paypal sucks sometimes. But yea I hope you get your money back Greg and Quick! If you verified your account info for paypal, they release any money that day. I could not understand it until I inquired about the holding time. If you have charge backs, they will hold your money for a time.
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Post by Scooter Elements on Sept 12, 2012 16:00:02 GMT -5
its kinda like my Paypal account. All payments i get for my website and ebay are held in a pending balance for up to 21 days or until the item is delivered to the customer with no problems. Its been like that since the start of my website. Paypal sucks sometimes. But yea I hope you get your money back Greg and Quick! If you verified your account info for paypal, they release any money that day. I could not understand it until I inquired about the holding time. If you have charge backs, they will hold your money for a time. We are verified. We have sent them our business license and everything and our paypal account says verified. We have no charge backs or any issues with paypal or a customer but they said that its just a security measure. They will review our account every few months and if they determine everything is ok then they will stop doing that.
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Post by mainepeace on Sept 13, 2012 0:35:37 GMT -5
We are verified. We have sent them our business license and everything and our paypal account says verified. We have no charge backs or any issues with paypal or a customer but they said that its just a security measure. They will review our account every few months and if they determine everything is ok then they will stop doing that. That is exactly why I do not deal with Paypal. My account was in good standing, I was verified, I had deposits made the next day. All of a sudden for NO REASON they started holding my funds for 21 days. Not a single complaint or suspicious transaction or issue. I will never deal with Paypal. Greg
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Post by grassulo on Sept 13, 2012 5:38:08 GMT -5
That is just absolutely horrible that someone would pull a stunt like that. Never mind that the parts didn't fit, that was his fault for not doing his homework, but to go and pull a friendly fraud like that, the guy is scum no two ways about it. Him being in Canada presents it's own set of problems too when trying to seek legal recourse, god what a mess.
I really hope this gets resolved and works out in your favor, no person, or business deserves to have stuff like that pulled on them.
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Post by stiv625 on Sept 13, 2012 6:23:08 GMT -5
We are verified. We have sent them our business license and everything and our paypal account says verified. We have no charge backs or any issues with paypal or a customer but they said that its just a security measure. They will review our account every few months and if they determine everything is ok then they will stop doing that. That is exactly why I do not deal with Paypal. My account was in good standing, I was verified, I had deposits made the next day. All of a sudden for NO REASON they started holding my funds for 21 days. Not a single complaint or suspicious transaction or issue. I will never deal with Paypal. Greg Yeah my PayPal seems to flip flop between "holding period" and not every few months, but I have had a dispute or two filed. I had a $200 golf club get lost in the mail... that was good times. I always buy extra insurance now. In my experience at least PayPal really REALLY protects "buyers" in general but doesn't seem to extend the same regard for sellers. I guess theres more buyers than sellers/vendors out there so they figure that's their best odds.
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Post by mainepeace on Sept 13, 2012 8:48:46 GMT -5
They figure that as long as there are buyers there will always be sellers. I'm sure I have lost a bit of business by not accepting Paypal. I don't deal with eBay either unless I absolutely have to.
I do appreciate all the support I've gotten from Scootdawg members. I got a few orders this week so hopefully everything will smooth out.
I do sell 250's. Just hard to get them but I can get whatever Peace Sports, Tao Tao or Roketa has at their warehouse.
Greg
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Post by rapidjim on Sept 13, 2012 12:24:34 GMT -5
its kinda like my Paypal account. All payments i get for my website and ebay are held in a pending balance for up to 21 days or until the item is delivered to the customer with no problems. Its been like that since the start of my website. Paypal sucks sometimes. But yea I hope you get your money back Greg and Quick! If you verified your account info for paypal, they release any money that day. I could not understand it until I inquired about the holding time. If you have charge backs, they will hold your money for a time. That is not true. I have a verified account that is over 10 years old and never had a charge back and they still play the 21 day "crap" every so often. I refuse to use "paynopal" ever again. They are 100% on the side of the buyer!!!!! Even if the buyer is wrong or has "buyer's remorse". I have not seen any difference in sales now that I quit using them and onl had 1 request for paypal to pay, when I told them I don't except paypal they paid by CC without issue. Jim
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Post by Scooter Elements on Sept 13, 2012 13:46:22 GMT -5
If you verified your account info for paypal, they release any money that day. I could not understand it until I inquired about the holding time. If you have charge backs, they will hold your money for a time. That is not true. I have a verified account that is over 10 years old and never had a charge back and they still play the 21 day "crap" every so often. I refuse to use "paynopal" ever again. They are 100% on the side of the buyer!!!!! Even if the buyer is wrong or has "buyer's remorse". I have not seen any difference in sales now that I quit using them and onl had 1 request for paypal to pay, when I told them I don't except paypal they paid by CC without issue. Jim yup since starting my website in December of last year. they have had the 21 day hold on all our payments or until the part arrives at the customer then they release it. our site has 100% positive feedback and our ebay page has 99.4% positive only one negative feedback from my competition ordering a freaken gasket and then leaving negative feedback. AHOLE! Lol but yea i hate the fact that Ebay charges you a small fee to list an item. Then they charge you a Final Value fee when it sells and then paypal charges you a fee to receive payment thats bull but most of my sales have been through ebay lately.
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Post by Enviromoto on Sept 19, 2012 8:29:33 GMT -5
I've had a few issues with the friendly fraudsters as well.
Bad news is even though I submitted complete information proving I was in the right I lost.
I hope you have a different experience.
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Post by tvnacman on Sept 19, 2012 9:35:40 GMT -5
Bottom line someone takes the hit the credit card clearing house does there best not to take the hit.
John
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Post by macktheknife on Sept 24, 2012 6:25:01 GMT -5
We are verified. We have sent them our business license and everything and our paypal account says verified. We have no charge backs or any issues with paypal or a customer but they said that its just a security measure. They will review our account every few months and if they determine everything is ok then they will stop doing that. That is exactly why I do not deal with Paypal. My account was in good standing, I was verified, I had deposits made the next day. All of a sudden for NO REASON they started holding my funds for 21 days. Not a single complaint or suspicious transaction or issue. I will never deal with Paypal. Greg Pros and cons with all systems but I'll not buy anymore form people who don't use paypal. Used a company like yours last year, all fine and dandy until my next credit card statement and someone had my card number and was having a good time in Mexico. Over $15k in charges I never made, the dang FBI even got involved! Traced back to the little seller that just like you refused to use paypal, now out of business and his employee in jail. The secure things people claim on their sites are only as secure as the people who work there. I would also say that what happened to you is wrong also but if just one $500 transaction makes the difference of you paying employees then you're on the verge of not making it IMO. Just imagine what a $2000 charge would do to you? I would look for some form of receiving payment that protects you because it is apparent that you don't have one, might make the difference of staying in business?
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Post by mainepeace on Sept 24, 2012 18:34:30 GMT -5
Paypal protects the buyer. It never protects the seller. Comment again on this when you're a retailer that uses Paypal and get your cashflow frozen for 21 days arbitrarily with no recourse. As a buyer you get great protection through Paypal's policies. Up to and including a default judgement in your favor if you just claim WITH NO PROOF that the product is damaged, counterfeit, or not delivered. You get your money back and the retailer gets screwed, every time.
The credit card companies protect both the buyer and the seller. If an employee stole a credit card number and ran up charges then yes, he should be in jail. There are policies in place to protect the credit card number from illicit use. The retailer also has LEGAL recourse to the credit card company and the customer for fraudulent charges or chargebacks.
With Paypal there IS NO LEGAL RECOURSE. You try to sue a large corporation that "officially" resides in a different country after signing up with a financial institution that claims it is NOT a bank with their one-sided "user policy" that makes you sign away any possibility of legal recourse.
And no, I am NOT "on the verge of not making it". Far from it, actually. I run three separate businesses and separate the online from the in-shop sales. A business that was transparently born of the 'pound can rely on its fellow members to keep it afloat.
I guess I won't count mactheknife as a customer ever. Oh well.
Greg
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Post by macktheknife on Sept 24, 2012 20:50:51 GMT -5
I see some of your points from your side of the fence and like I said pros and cons with any system and there is no perfect one either but on my side of the fence the FBI was knocking on my door at the tune of $15k and ready to handcuff me, they don't do that for $500 so I think you can see my concerns.
And as far as you not making it I was basing my opinion on your statement;
Mainely Scooters is not a big faceless corporation like IBM or Vespa. I do not have unlimited funds. A $500 chargeback means I do not have enough money to pay my employees this week. Losing $500 at the end of the season when I will probably not sell another scooter until March HURTS ME SIGNIFICANTLY
So now I'm confused? Which is it?
And no, I am NOT "on the verge of not making it". Far from it, actually. I run three separate businesses and separate the online from the in-shop sales. A business that was transparently born of the 'pound can rely on its fellow members to keep it afloat.
I sure hope the pound can do what it says but if you get many more of the friendly frauds it might not be enough? Not being able to pay your employees because of one $500 loss? That doesn't translate to "far from it" but it is good sales hype for sure! ;D
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