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Post by analogreigns on Apr 22, 2012 19:03:53 GMT -5
Well, if so, really my own stupidity, in misusing Boric Acid. Here's the story: This Winter I bought a very nice Moto Fino 150cc scoot, my first introduction to the scooter galaxy. (I used to own an 1100cc Honda Shadow, but that's another story). Anyway, I've been reading with great interest all the success stories about Boric Acid. I broke in the engine to the scoot--no problems. Changed the oil (crankcase and gears) at the right intervals. Just turned over 1000 miles a few days ago. After reading the Boric Acid pages in this board, I've tried it on my older BMW car, with good success--and no problems. Mixing 1 tablespoon (or 2?) a quart with a tablespoon of water per quart of oil and shaking the heck out of it for several minutes then using that mix in the engine. Last Saturday, I had the "bright" (DIM, DARK) idea of putting raw boric acid power directly into the crankcase of my reliable, newly broken in scooter...thinking of the magic it would do.... Yes, I could of drained it, and mixed it with the oil the way recommended (and that I used in the car) but, hey, its safe right? It melts at 170F and the scoot runs at around 200F, so what's the worst that could happen??? So I stuffed a table-spoon and a half of boric acid powder down the oil fill hole...(dumb, Dumb, DUMB). The scoot was rock solid reliable, so... Then I rode the thing out in the country for about a half an hour or so. 20 mins into the ride, while at full throttle, the engine just suddenly stalled. Never happened like that before. Smelled hot. I let it sit a few minutes on the side of the road, then restarted, and away I went. Then 10 mins later, she stalled again. I'm a little worried, but hey, just needs to run a little, right? Restarted a 2nd time, and fine, I made it home. Then Sat. night I decided to ride across town (Charlotte) to a friend's party. Started up fine, sounded OK (but it did sound a little more rattling than usual, come to think of it) and rode down a main road, getting it up to 50 (my top speed). Everything's cool, behaving normally. Suddenly about 15 mins into the ride, the scoot's engine dies. I pull of the side of the road and crank it...and it cranks fine, but actually TOO fine....seems to be meeting NO piston compression...and the cranking goes too fast. Engine smells hot and burning. Oil on the dip stick was down 50%. A nice Austrian family let me park the scoot in their driveway for the night. I pulled the spark plug today and it was dry. Tested and plug is getting a spark. Torqued it back in. Upon inspection, the tube coming off the top of of the head (PCV vent?) had popped off...also that same tube had a burn mark on it further up. I put the tube back on. Still the fast (no compression) crank. I'm very much afraid that the granular boric acid did NOT melt inside the engine....and clogged the oil system causing catastrophic failure (rings? hole in the piston?). Yes, my own #@%&*!%#* fault... I don't know for sure the engine is blown yet, but I also don't know what further diagnostics to use to get to the root of the problem. I really don't want to (nor am I able to) spend hundreds of dollars on a new engine. Suggestions from mechanical gurus? Short of tearing the engine down, how can I tell if it NEEDS to be torn down? Has boric acid (used foolishly) had this effect before??? Main symptom: Very fast crank, with seemingly no compression. Scoot won't start. Still in the Austrian's driveway....
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Post by wile on Apr 22, 2012 19:10:44 GMT -5
Take the filter off and It is probably clogged you probably starved it of oil and burned the sh!t out of it, bearings rings and whatnot. You might as well get a new motor, to repair it will cost you about the same plus all the extra labor envolved.
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Post by analogreigns on Apr 22, 2012 19:17:22 GMT -5
D*mn. Just, d*mn.
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Post by chromestarhustler on Apr 22, 2012 19:29:00 GMT -5
you clogged your lube system up and got burnt down, damn that sucks.
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Post by macktheknife on Apr 22, 2012 19:33:03 GMT -5
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Post by chromestarhustler on Apr 22, 2012 19:34:44 GMT -5
of course he might have just gotten damn lucky and one of the valves is hanging open.
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Post by analogreigns on Apr 22, 2012 19:49:15 GMT -5
OK, going to pull the oil filter screen.
If I find no clog, how can I tell if just a valve is stuck?
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Post by wile on Apr 22, 2012 20:06:15 GMT -5
The top of the valve stem will be down. But easy enough just take the valve cover off and rotate the motor with your hand and watch the valve stems if they come up with the spring. Wile
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Post by maveroketa on Apr 22, 2012 20:50:34 GMT -5
You can do a quick and basic compression test by taking out the spark plug and cranking the motor. Put one of your fingers over the spark plug hold and if it gets pushed off, you have good compression. I just finished fixing a motor that had a hole in the piston and it cranked over way too fast. Good luck and let me know if you want to talk through a rebuild. It really isn't that tough and depending on the damage, you can rebuild for less than $200.
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Post by timber on Apr 22, 2012 23:32:46 GMT -5
This is exactly why I don't like the idea of messing with such additives, there's even a thread here on this that is LOCKED for a reason, your burned out engine is one of the reasons such threads have been locked... If you are going to put in additives, put some SEAFOAM in the gasoline, at least that's a tried and proven benefit and goes in the gasoline where it does the most good. New crate engine; 150cc 4 Stroke GY6 Fully Automatically Short Case Engine Motor Scooter Sale: $289.00 Brand new GY6 High Performance ATV QUAD GO-KART MOPED SCOOTER Engine, 4 stroke, AUTO (CVT) clutch. Engine comes complete, ready to bolt on. Kick start lever is included. THIS COMPLETE ENGINE INCLUDES CARBERATER, CDI, STARTER SOLENOID, COIL.This scooter engine is used in a wide variety of applications, including full-size street legal scooters, all terrain vehicles (ATVs), dirt bikes, and go karts. Compatible with both 125cc and 150cc engine size scooters and vehicles. **Please Note: GY6 125cc and 150cc motors come in different sizes. Please measure the physical size to be sure you get the correct one. www.amazon.com/Stroke-Automatically-Engine-Scooter-Go-Kart/dp/B003YCYZZC
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Post by scooterfun on Apr 22, 2012 23:45:19 GMT -5
Boric acid also makes the starter clutch to slick to engage..you might be lucky..for now on please remember..
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Post by skuttadawg on Apr 23, 2012 1:06:55 GMT -5
It may not be the BA but it had a failure after doing so that may contributed . Do you have a pcvvalve and blow off tube or catch can ? My auto repair instructor said they used kerosene to clean out debri in the oil passages . Only put some in a let it get hot and drain as not recommended to ride with to ride with that in the engine for long . I had no problems since used Castrol Synblend instead of a full synthetic like those who had a wet clutch slip . I did have some crud on the oil screen . Did you blow a gasket or seal ? I would check the valve clearances and adjust if needed and hope that all that is wrong for that issue . Did do use a compression gauge and have the throttle at WOT to allow as much air in as possible ? . How many miles on the engine ? Is there any metallic particles in the oil ? When I had a piston disintegrate the oil was blackened and loaded with tiny pieces of the piston . Check the timing chain to see if it broke or came off . You can push down the kickstarter by hand to get a rough idea on compression . Top of the head may be your EGR or PAIR ( emissions ) . Replace the vacuum lines with automotive 1/4 fuel line many do this along with using it for the scooter fuel lines too .
Running too lean like many stock scooters have can damage the piston when you ride it hard and more so when the weather is hot . Remove your plug and compare it to this chart to see how you might need to tune the carb if needed
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Post by h3nry on Apr 23, 2012 2:36:27 GMT -5
It was NOT the boric acid, it was the aplication. that i must say.
If you think its the piston and can get to the.top end of the.engine its as simple as 4 outer cover bolts and as much as 6 other bolts to get the head off and take a look at the piston. Just make sure its at TDC and dont let the.timing chain fall down into the jug,its a pain to get back lol Taking everything off and putting it all back should take less than 2 hours when taking your time
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Post by Kiwiscoot on Apr 23, 2012 4:20:46 GMT -5
could be the clutch of you starter that is not engaging.
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Post by Globs on Apr 23, 2012 10:30:42 GMT -5
IIRC the melting point of BA was 170C - above what your engine gets to.
The powder you added probably clogged the strainer and starved the engine of oil - only ever add LIQUID to an engine, BA or not.
Hope you get a resolution.
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Post by timber on Apr 23, 2012 12:28:23 GMT -5
IIRC the melting point of BA was 170C - above what your engine gets to. . Yep, there's a BIG difference between the OP's 170F statement and your 170C temperature, would be an easy mistake seeing "170" and thinking degrees F
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Post by lshigham on Apr 23, 2012 12:59:06 GMT -5
IIRC the melting point of BA was 170C - above what your engine gets to. . Yep, there's a BIG difference between the OP's 170F statement and your 170C temperature, would be an easy mistake seeing "170" and thinking degrees F It wouldn't be a particularly good idea even if the melting point was 50c, the powder would re-solidify when the engine cools and still clog things up.
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Post by dyoung1167 on Apr 23, 2012 19:51:44 GMT -5
been running boric as you did (through the filler with no water) for over 4 months now no probs. the diff may be that i added a teaspoon, let it idle a while to get a good mix, then added another. at my oil change i mixed it in the oil first but still no water. i don't get the water deal anyway. they say moisture will help it bond to the metal when it at it's melting point, but no engines i know reach 170c, on top of that they mention moisture but not specifically WATER. oil is moist and i have never ever ever heard anyone say it was good to put water in engine oil (with the exception of someone who took moisture to mean water)
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Post by mymomwantsatrike on Apr 23, 2012 20:11:07 GMT -5
I fail to see why anyone would use this stuff in something "rock solid reliable?" As an experiment?
Conventional oil dino or synth works great and is not broke? So why fix it?
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Post by analogreigns on Apr 23, 2012 20:24:00 GMT -5
OK, guys. I still need to arrange transportation of the scoot away from the Austrian's driveway (anyone in Charlotte with a pickup? ) Therefore I can't really tear the thing apart where it is. I did remove the plug, and there is no pressure either in using the starter OR the kick start. Would a slipping starter clutch make the piston not move for BOTH electric AND kick start? Sorry to ask this, I'm just not certain how the starter clutch works.It really would be loverly if the engine ain't toast. 300+ bux just ain't an option now. (I must admit though, that 170cc 161QMK Performance engine at Scrappy (for $500) does look groovy....)
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Post by wile on Apr 23, 2012 20:44:27 GMT -5
you can rent a van for about 40 bucks a day. Wile
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Post by mymomwantsatrike on Apr 23, 2012 21:24:32 GMT -5
Fix it up and scoot once more
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Post by analogreigns on Apr 23, 2012 22:02:10 GMT -5
I fail to see why anyone would use this stuff in something "rock solid reliable?" As an experiment? Conventional oil dino or synth works great and is not broke? So why fix it? You're right, I did a stupid thing. I like experimenting, but, this was dumb. C'est la vie!
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Post by analogreigns on Apr 30, 2012 14:24:11 GMT -5
Well, got my scoot home, (PTL for friends with pickups!) and now have the shrouding off. Cranking with the starter or the kick-start gives no compression that I can feel from my finger over the spark-plug hole.
The valves move fine (when I removed the valve cover and cranked it), so I have to assume that the piston or the rings have blown, correct?
I drained the oil, and yes the oil filter/screen was covered in boric acid powder....
I replaced the motor oil with kerosene....just to crank it and try to clean out the oil passages in the engine.
Right now I'm trying to figure out if I should try to rebuild the top of the engine...or just replace the whole engine (for less than $350 via ebay). Leaning toward replacement--as then I will know the engine is sound... and won't cause problems down the road.
Suggestions, gurus???
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Post by mattcar27 on Apr 30, 2012 14:30:54 GMT -5
get the engine online i bought mine from amazon and i could not be happier fastest engine i have ever had
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Post by analogreigns on May 12, 2012 12:27:14 GMT -5
Well, after taking the head and piston off....and seeing that assembly is really no big deal...I've chose to simply replace those, and see what happens. This means $200 for the best Taiwanese stuff--with a slight upgrade in size (160cc), vs. $400 for the same engine-size/material that failed on me. I'm going with Scrappy's Denso 59mm Big(ger, slightly) Bore kit, with a Ruima head. www.scrappydogscooters.com/125_150cc_Performance.html Wish me luck everyone! (Where might I find recommended torque-wrench settings for the piston and head anyone?)
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Post by nulldevice on May 12, 2012 18:48:38 GMT -5
If you starved for oil the lower end might be ruined as well. I wish you well, but the wishes will go farther with a complete motor.
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Post by analogreigns on May 31, 2012 23:44:56 GMT -5
Perhaps the lower is damaged, but I don't think so. Time will tell.
The GOOD news is:
I have now rebuilt the upper (with a larger 60mm piston and a new Ruima head--all Taiwan parts...163cc wooohooo!), and put it all back together (quite a job, for this amateur!), and have about 25 miles on the rebuilt engine.
No leaks (other than a troublesome exhaust gasket).
I've changed the oil 3 times now...and will again, in another couple hours.
I also installed an hour-meter which has a built in tachometer. I had no idea these engines did 8000 RPMs!
No more boric acid for me though, thank you very much...
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Post by larry001964 on Jun 1, 2012 7:20:46 GMT -5
Glad to see he's rebuilding it. I know the old engine is recycleable. But too many things now days are looked at as disposable. Nobody fixes their problems any more.
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Post by analogreigns on Jun 28, 2012 22:32:57 GMT -5
I've got about 500 miles on the rebuild, and I couldn't be more pleased.
A new K&S variator and sliders makes the thing take off well, with a top speed of close to 60 now...and I have a new 30mm carb waiting to be put on too...
The 163cc engine has plenty of torque too for every hill for this 280 lb. rider.
Sometimes I forget this is a scooter and I think I'm on my old 1100cc Honda Shadow.
NO BORIC ACID NOW THOUGH!!! NEVER AGAIN!
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