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Post by adoripper on Feb 24, 2012 20:46:46 GMT -5
I bought a 2010 Tank Urban Sporty Tk 150cc scooter about two years ago. Immediately after I bought it, the scooter began to show certain issues. Firstly, the light covers began to melt(factory issue bulbs, regular wattage 25W). Shortly thereafter I recieved a massive shock while riding at about 45mph (scary). Then about a week later the engine began to start bogging down. Initial acceleration from zero to about 20mph was alright but once it got to above 25 the motor would bog for about a second before recovering. When I get it up to about 45 (which takes forever due to the bogging and it has a top speed of 55/60) the motor begins to seriously quit out on me. It bogs down so much that by the time it begins to recover again I am going 5mph. I brought the scooter back to the store Scooter Solutions of orange county and they pretty much told me that I was @#$% out of luck. It turns out that Tank Scooters went out of business about three weeks after I bought the scooter and because I had the manufacturers warranty which was good for a year I did not get the extended warranty through the dealership. Two other dealers could not figure out what was wrong with it and charged me up the wazoo for hours upon hours of "electrical diagnostics" which in other words means that they fixed absolutely nothing. I decided to garage it until I finally decided to try to fix it myself. Mind you that about 2 years has passed since it was last ridden. So being somewhat good with motors I decided to rip the thing apart. I cleaned and adjusted the carbeurator, replaced the fuel lines and an extra large filter (fuel is not the issue, vacuum lines/ card are working optimally), custom molded an air intake scoop for the filter/ carb., cleaned all of the gaskets/ piston head, lubed everything, checked the autochoke to make sure it was working(which it may or may not have been doing properly Im not sure), and tested the scooter voltage while running it at high rpms. I then checked all of the electrical lines to make sure the connections/ cables were all in good condition. I also double checked the ground wires and they were good as well. So... I rebuilt the entire thing from the frame up and it still is having the exact same problems. So back to the electrical issue. I forgot to mention earlier that the lights do not turn off when the engine is running ( either a fauly switch or bad wiring but I dont have the experience to figure it out) The running voltage of the gy6 setup is typically around 13.5 volts. While in idle mine stays around 13-14 V, but when accelerating or running at maximum rpms the voltage jumps so high that the voltometer or whatever its called doesn't even have a number telling you the V output! I also noticed that after running it for a short while the voltage regulator, the spark plug relay, and the autochoke are incredibly hot! To the point where the plastic/rubber casings are almost melting. Im not sure but I think this goes hand in hand with my headlights melting, and I found it interesting because Im am pretty sure that they all run off of the same electrical generator ( a scooter has a generator on the motor right? I couldn't find anything online about that) once the motor is running. I looked at an electrical diagram of the tank 150cc urban sporty and saw that all of the wiring is good and everything seems to be in place. Is it possible to install a voltage dampener to lessen the output from the motor? I dont want to install new electrical parts if there is a chance that they might get fried the first time I go to run it. I decided that it would be a good idea to get a new voltage regulator and autochoke. I think they may have been worn out by the massive amounts of juice they were getting. I am waiting for those parts to arrive so I can install them and see if that fixes the problem but in the meantime I want any/ all input that you all might have about these issues. Are there any other possibilities which I havent considered? Thanks ahead of time for any help you can give me!
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Post by terrilee on Feb 24, 2012 21:00:00 GMT -5
way , way above my head
if ur getting shocked , tho, sounds like something isnt grounded correctly
but like i said, way above my knowledge
the bogging--well u said u put a mod "air scoop"
sounds to lean to much air not enough gas i would suggest getting rid of that and see what happens
also ur air /fuel screw prob needs adjustment along with the valves have u checked them?
well all i can say is good luck hope u get it running
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Post by mainepeace on Feb 24, 2012 21:03:31 GMT -5
From what you describe it sounds like the voltage regulator is not working properly. Too much voltage is surging through the system when the RPM's rise causing the CDI to malfunction and the lights to melt.
D-cat is much better with the electrical system so hopefully he has another idea.
Greg
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Post by adoripper on Feb 24, 2012 21:53:01 GMT -5
Hey Terrilee, It has actually ben running stronger since I put the air scoop on. I have also adjusted the air/fuel screw as well as the idle accordingly and the carburetor seems to be running perfectly. I dont think its an air or fuel problem. Im leaning more towards the voltage regulator(causing short circuiting/ bad spark). Hopefully the new regulator will improve things once I get it installed. Thanks for the input!
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Post by dyoung1167 on Feb 25, 2012 10:45:19 GMT -5
yup, sounds like the r/r to me also. it IS your "dampener" so to speak. you shouldn't get more than 15v or so at speed and 13 or so at idle. the r/r has three jobs. first- it REGULATES the alternators ac voltage to the ranges above. second- it RECTIFIES the regulated ac to dc for charging the batt. and whatever dc loads you may have. third- it acts as a load it's self to make up for any unused power. say the alt is designed for a 10 amp load with everything running correctly but you lose both headlights (on mine that would equal 70 watts or 5.8 amps at 12v) the r/r now has to USE that leftover 5.8 amps, causing it to get hotter than it would if the headlights were still burning. it would seem the regulator part is not doing it's job and allowing the voltage to get too high, affecting everything after it, such as cooking your battery from overcharging. if your cdi is dc (i'm guessing you mean cdi when you say "spark plug relay") then it would also overheat.
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Post by Globs on Feb 25, 2012 11:55:06 GMT -5
say the alt is designed for a 10 amp load with everything running correctly but you lose both headlights (on mine that would equal 70 watts or 5.8 amps at 12v) the r/r now has to USE that leftover 5.8 amps, Sorry but I can't believe these regulators are simple shunt regulators, I think they are series regulators - or in fact field coil regulators - they regulate by controlling alternator output power, which is done by varying the alternator field (fixed) windings with more current for more output. I.e. the more power you use the hotter the alternatore gets and the greater load on the engine. I suppose they may have designed it a different way, but a shunt regulator is inefficient and less reliable in this case.
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Post by D-cat on Feb 25, 2012 14:14:47 GMT -5
Nope. The stator employs solid magnets, there's no field coils to regulate, to the regulator does simply dump the extra load to ground (or shunt the supply, depending on the stator and regulator).
On 150+cc scooters, they have to follow MC laws so you will not be able to turn the headlights off, that's normal.
It does sound to me as well that the regulator is shot, or perhaps not the correct regulator for this stator. Either way it will need replacing.
Edit: First check the ground to the regulator. If that is not full continuity, the regulator will be unable to regulate.
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Post by adoripper on Feb 25, 2012 22:10:15 GMT -5
Hey D-cat. I was wondering... how exactly can I tell if the regulator is a correct match with the stator? Im pretty sure all of the parts I havent replaced are the original factory parts. So they should match up right? Also do you think you could elaborate on the regulator ground continuity? I understand that it needs to be a grounded continuous circuit but Im not sure exactly how I would go about testing it. Anyway you could walk me through it step by step? I have a voltmeter which can read continuity but I have never used it before. Thanks
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Post by adoripper on Feb 26, 2012 16:33:39 GMT -5
Nope. The stator employs solid magnets, there's no field coils to regulate, to the regulator does simply dump the extra load to ground (or shunt the supply, depending on the stator and regulator). On 150+cc scooters, they have to follow MC laws so you will not be able to turn the headlights off, that's normal. It does sound to me as well that the regulator is shot, or perhaps not the correct regulator for this stator. Either way it will need replacing. Edit: First check the ground to the regulator. If that is not full continuity, the regulator will be unable to regulate. Any way you could walk me through the continuity test?
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Post by johnwarfin on Feb 26, 2012 17:48:28 GMT -5
i have a tank urban sporty 150 (aka jcl) but it has 18w lights. the only two cases of melted light sockets ive seen were because they put high power bulbs in. costly mistake.
imo if it was a bad reg the bulbs would blow. to see the true voltage just go to the next scale on the meter.
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Post by D-cat on Feb 26, 2012 18:32:30 GMT -5
Well, the first part is the ohms test on the green wire at the regulator connector. It should be zero (or at least negligible) to the frame. If it's not, that needs to be fixed.
Assuming that passes, you want to test for ohms between ground and the yellow, ground and the white, and the yellow and white. -My guess is you will get .1, .2, and .3 respectively which would indicate a typical center common stator, get the corresponding rectifier. You can use a half or a full wave rectifier on these, but obviously more usable power is available from the full wave. -If you get inf, inf, .3 (or basically, only get a reading between yellow and white), it's ungrounded (aka floating) fullwave. -If you get .1, .2, and .05-.1, it's a base grounded type and you need a half wave rectifier (usually only on 50cc) to avoid a negative wave short circuit.
All of this is void if you have 3 yellow wires; then you just need a 3 phase rectifier, generally 5 to 7 pins; match to your harness.
Anyway, one of the things I have noticed is the difficulty in finding the correct rectifier for a given stator. Most of the time they are not described beyond "GY6 regulator" and I think for the most part they come from the factories unmarked, so the people selling them don't even know what they have. If they're unmarked, it's really hard to tell; you'd have to test each one with an ohm meter to determine its behavior. I'd like to believe that the ones sold for 150cc are full wave and the ones sold for 50cc are half wave, but I have yet to see this labeled. I know the flat-4s are half wave, and the floating ground ones are labeled as such (according to Scrappy, also have cooling fins on the sides), but that's about it.
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Post by adoripper on Feb 26, 2012 20:20:26 GMT -5
Well, the first part is the ohms test on the green wire at the regulator connector. It should be zero (or at least negligible) to the frame. If it's not, that needs to be fixed. Assuming that passes, you want to test for ohms between ground and the yellow, ground and the white, and the yellow and white.
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Post by adoripper on Feb 26, 2012 20:34:55 GMT -5
Well, the first part is the ohms test on the green wire at the regulator connector. It should be zero (or at least negligible) to the frame. If it's not, that needs to be fixed. Assuming that passes, you want to test for ohms between ground and the yellow, ground and the white, and the yellow and white. -- The green checks out ok. For all of the others (ground to yellow, ground to white, yellow and white) I am getting a reading of zero?! Does that make any sense at all?
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Post by D-cat on Feb 26, 2012 22:44:48 GMT -5
Well, we verified that it is grounded. Does your meter have a 1 ohm scale? It might not be able to read the small amount.
Fortunately there is another method that will hopefully exaggerate the differences a bit for us. Unplug the stator (block connector, don't unplug the bullet connectors) and start the engine. Do not rev the engine just let it idle. The accuracy of this depends on the engine being the same rpm through all readings. Take the AC voltage reading between each set at the stator connector. What do you get?
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Post by adoripper on Feb 27, 2012 12:05:38 GMT -5
Well, we verified that it is grounded. Does your meter have a 1 ohm scale? It might not be able to read the small amount. Fortunately there is another method that will hopefully exaggerate the differences a bit for us. Unplug the stator (block connector, don't unplug the bullet connectors) and start the engine. Do not rev the engine just let it idle. The accuracy of this depends on the engine being the same rpm through all readings. Take the AC voltage reading between each set at the stator connector. What do you get? --So is there a specific sized flywheel puller tool that I will need? I dont have one. Might an automotive store carry one that I could use?
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Post by D-cat on Feb 27, 2012 13:29:12 GMT -5
Why? The stator seems fine. You're not removing the stator, just unplugging it and testing it in place so we can determine what regulator you need.
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Post by adoripper on Feb 27, 2012 14:51:23 GMT -5
Oh ok I see. Ok well I have tested them and the yellow is reading between 16-18 V. While the white is reading between 19-21 V. The idle is jumping around for some reason. It will go from barely running to running with enough rpms to get the tire spinning and then back down to barely running, and that is without giving it any gas at all.
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Post by D-cat on Feb 27, 2012 15:06:51 GMT -5
That's classic vacuum leak. That needs to be solved if this test is going to be accurate. I also need the reading between yellow and white, if there is any, to get a good handle on the stator.
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Post by adoripper on Feb 27, 2012 15:36:15 GMT -5
The Voltage of yellow/ white is 2.5. So I'm guessing I'll have to go through and replace all of the vacuum lines. What else will I have to focus on in order to solve the idling issue? I've never dealt with vacuum lines before.
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Post by D-cat on Feb 27, 2012 19:08:49 GMT -5
Check for cracks in the manifold. A spray bottle w/ water can help. If you spray a spot and the engine idle changes, you probably found a leak. With that kind of difference I'm pretty sure you have a half wave stator. Though not specifically marked for it, I think something like this would work. I like the pigtail idea, since it makes matching the colors much easier. As I discovered early on in this site, there is no standard pinout for the regulators.
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Post by mainepeace on Feb 27, 2012 19:36:18 GMT -5
Another thing to check is that the vacuum line isn't collapsing under the vacuum. Someone, I think it was D-Cat, gave the tip that zip ties make great vacuum line fasteners. And they do!
Greg
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Post by adoripper on Feb 27, 2012 21:11:55 GMT -5
Alright. My new regulator is in. The lights and all of the electrical stuff is working properly. I adjusted the air/fuel mix and I have been able to stabilize the idle at a nice low steady rhythm. It all seems to be working properly. I also removed the muffler because it was broken and I could hear a piece of it banging and clanging around inside. So now when it is just sitting idling... it sounds right and seems to be functioning properly, but when I go to accelerate... it bogs down. It accelerates pretty well up to about 25 mph (not as quickly as it should). Then it starts to bog. It alternates every two seconds or so from running strongly to bogging down. I checked for vacuum leaks but I wasn't able to find any. It tops out at about 35-40 mph, but I know from experience when I first bought it that it is capable of doing 55-60. I can also tell just by listening that it is not getting up to full power. So now I am at a loss. I have no idea what could be causing it to bog down. Perhaps the electrical/ motor problems were not related from the start? Any input? I also have been talking to scooter repair places in my area and they have all told me that based on what I am telling them, they have no idea what could be wrong with it.
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Post by terrilee on Feb 27, 2012 21:32:32 GMT -5
Alright. My new regulator is in. The lights and all of the electrical stuff is working properly. I adjusted the air/fuel mix and I have been able to stabilize the idle at a nice low steady rhythm. It all seems to be working properly. I also removed the muffler because it was broken and I could hear a piece of it banging and clanging around inside. So now when it is just sitting idling... it sounds right and seems to be functioning properly, but when I go to accelerate... it bogs down i am NOT a mech r u saying the muffler is off the scoot? if so thats a prob, i think i think they need 'back pressure' or something right ?Attachments:
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Post by D-cat on Feb 27, 2012 21:37:25 GMT -5
4 strokes don't necessarily need the backpressure, but they do need the heat and gasses to be moved away from the exhaust port or you could burn a valve or just plain overheat. If the pipe is still on, just the muffler removed, it can still work but the carburetor needs to be retuned for it. Just going by the muffler being removed, my guess is that you are leaning out around half throttle.
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Post by mainepeace on Feb 27, 2012 21:40:52 GMT -5
Glad you got it running again!
Is it pretty regular on/off? If it is, then it might be related to the electrical system, like a loose connection that is connected until the RPM's go up, then it disconnects until the RPM's go down. Possibly the CDI got damaged from the regulator issues.
One thing to look at is the carb diaphragm. Perhaps there is a pinhole or a leak.
Also look to see if there isn't spark blowout. Check the spark plug.
Greg
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Post by adoripper on Feb 27, 2012 22:01:15 GMT -5
Another thing to check is that the vacuum line isn't collapsing under the vacuum. Someone, I think it was D-Cat, gave the tip that zip ties make great vacuum line fasteners. And they do! Greg -- Would it be best to just replace all of the vacuum lines?
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Post by adoripper on Feb 27, 2012 22:07:11 GMT -5
The pipe is on and the muffler is off. The spark plug is new. I am going to order a new intake manifold because it seems to be slightly cracked. I am also going to replace the vacuum lines and adjust the air/fuel mix again to see if that changes anything. I will let you all know how it turns out when I do.
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Post by adoripper on Feb 28, 2012 15:14:26 GMT -5
So I have replaced the intake manifold as well as all of the vacuum lines. I let it idle (which constantly changes still) while I tweaked the air/fuel mix screw and it didn't seem to have any effect, whether I screwed it in all of the way in or out. I removed the vacuum line from the carb and it seemed to help so perhaps you were correct, mainepeace, in assuming that the diaphragm is shot. At this point would it just be easier to replace the entire carb? I am looking at new diaphragms and Im thinking it might be easier to just by a whole new one and save the parts off of my old one. Now that the muffler is off I can hear that the motor is backfiring quite a lot. I read that a bad carb vacuum can cause this?
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Post by mndawg on Feb 28, 2012 15:40:44 GMT -5
You guys are going to hate me.......Your original problem was improper output from the alternator. What most people tend to forget is that electrical overcharge= a short or improper winding on the coils of the alternator. Since your problem seems to have been a wrong winding issue in the alternator/generator, resulting in overcharge that ended up going to ground somewhere and in essence turning your scooter into a rolling charger.....you have most likely been the victim of seals and gaskets cooking due to high heat from being electrically charged while operating. The seals and gaskets through the entire motor should be replaced and the charging system checked. Anything with a sealed surface need, is suspect after the heat from electrifying the entire metal body of the engine. Electricity = heat, heat = damage to rubber and cork seals and their surfaces.
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Post by D-cat on Feb 28, 2012 15:41:03 GMT -5
Is it a loud banging backfire out the tail pipe? If it is, it's from running lean (collecting gasses from lean misfires igniting), and it will eventually burn the exhaust valve. You need to upjet, guessing 115 if you're still using the stock air box. Yes, vacuum and other carb issues could be contributing, but take care of the known issue first.
If the F/A screw is having no effect even all the way in, the pin on it may be worn or broken. You may want a full rebuild kit just to make sure all the moving and adjustable parts are accounted for. A whole new carb is probably not necessary but it is a valid approach if you prefer.
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