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Post by wyldbill on May 21, 2011 18:36:31 GMT -5
Hey guys. I have been tinkering on small engine stuff for years & I am a mechanic by trade but not on engine but HVAC stuff. I'm trying to fix this scoot for a great guy I know. He does voulenteer work & takes this thing everywhere. He says last year it was starting to be hard to get started & stay running & has been getting worse. Then when he got it out after the Winter it wouldn't even start for him. So what I have done so far: Removed the carb, took it apart, soaked it, blew it out, put it all back together. Changed the spark plug. Drained the tank & put new high test in. Tested gas tank safety valve thingy (because I had to drain the tank anyways). Tested the choke bystarter thing. Now the bysarter works if I put 12V to the yellow wire feeding it BUT when I get the engine running I measure no voltage to the yellow wire that feeds the bystarter. The strange thing is the license plate light seems to be lit when the engine is running & I think that comes off the same feed as the 12V to the bystarter So,..it is very hard to get started & when you do get it to run you can't give it any throttle or it stalls. It smelled like it was flooding out the last time i ried it but of course I kept opening hte throttle while I was tring to get it to start so.... Any idea what to do next??? Thanks
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Post by edfr on May 21, 2011 20:50:23 GMT -5
I am assumeing it is a 4 stroke, and if it has some miles on it, it is time to Adjust the Valves. It it is a 50cc 4 stroke set the Top Intake to .003" and the Bottom Exhaust to .004", if it is a 150 set the Top Intake to .004" and the Bottom Exhaust to .005".
Then turn the fuel ration screw Clockwise until it stops and then Turn it Counter Clockwise 2 turns. You can find tune it after it starts and IDLES for at least 5 minutes to get it nice and hot. Lefty
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Post by smokiestover on May 22, 2011 23:47:24 GMT -5
How many miles?
How did you remove the carb?
How about the air filter?
How does the plug look?
Voltage to bi- starter is AC. Set your multimeter accordingly and measure across the unplugged female terminals. The green wire runs down to a resistor mounted on the frame.
I would not mess with the valves right now. To adjust them, you must remove all the body panels, the exhaust, the front exhaust mount bracket, the fan cover, the vacumn lines (2) and bi-starter wire on top of the plastic air jacket which covers the top of the motor, the top plastic air jacket and the valve cover. You will need a new valve cover rubber seal and exhaust pipe gasket (aluminum crush ring - one use only) when you put it back. Mine starts a bit better when the valves are tight and in need of adjustment. If adjusting, set them both at .06 mm (.0025"). This motor does not like much valve lash.
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Post by smokiestover on May 23, 2011 1:36:25 GMT -5
Another question I should have asked first.
Has anyone attempted to drain the oil using what looks like a drain bolt on the right side at the bottom of the crankcase? That's the cam chain tensioner. Take it out, re-install it incorrectly, start it up and the cam chain jumps out of timing....often times doing serious and expensive damage to the motor.
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Post by wyldbill on May 24, 2011 16:21:40 GMT -5
How many miles? Oh duh I thought I put that. It has 4000 miles on it. How did you remove the carb? I unbolted it from the rubber piece attached to the motor ?? How about the air filter? It's good How does the plug look? Normal. Not wet & not overheated Voltage to bi- starter is AC. Set your multimeter accordingly and measure across the unplugged female terminals. The green wire runs down to a resistor mounted on the frame. OH!!!! Ok that makes sense LOL!!! Mystery solved! That would explain why the license plate light worked. No rectifier on that circuit because it is just resistance loads. Funny thing is my meter is a HVAC meter so it defaults to AC volts. So it was a pain everytime I tested it I had to remeber to switch it to DC volts. I guess I should have left it alone LOL!! I would not mess with the valves right now. To adjust them, you must remove all the body panels, the exhaust, the front exhaust mount bracket, the fan cover, the vacumn lines (2) and bi-starter wire on top of the plastic air jacket which covers the top of the motor, the top plastic air jacket and the valve cover. You will need a new valve cover rubber seal and exhaust pipe gasket (aluminum crush ring - one use only) when you put it back. I already took the exhaust off to remove the carb & never replaced it. Mine starts a bit better when the valves are tight and in need of adjustment. So yours starts BETTER when the valves need adjustment?? If adjusting, set them both at .06 mm (.0025"). This motor does not like much valve lash.
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Post by wyldbill on May 24, 2011 16:24:12 GMT -5
Another question I should have asked first. Has anyone attempted to drain the oil using what looks like a drain bolt on the right side at the bottom of the crankcase? That's the cam chain tensioner. Take it out, re-install it incorrectly, start it up and the cam chain jumps out of timing....often times doing serious and expensive damage to the motor. Hmmm interesting. This guy does his own oil changes & tried to do some work on it but doesn't know much about what he is doing (like I do ) How do I check the timing?
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Post by wyldbill on May 24, 2011 22:08:06 GMT -5
I was waiting for some more replies & got impatient. I decided to check the timing, power to bystarter, & the valve lash. The timing seemed fine. The valve tappets seemed to be pretty snug against the valves so I adjusted those. WHAT A PAIN!!!!! I'll tell you what all this tiny little crap is for the birds! I'd rather adjust the valves on a big V10 engine than this thing. Anyways I took a piece of tinfoil & tried to set the valves. It must have made a difference because it did start. It idled really rough though & I couldn't touch the throttle at all or it would stall. Eventually after like 12 minutes it started to come around. I took off the parking brake & babied the throttle until I could give it some throttle. I took it for a ride. When ever I let off the throttle to stop it would die. The idle was very erratic. I adjusted the air screw on the carb & that seemed to help. Boy this thing is fun!! the more I rode it the better it seemed to do. Seems like maybe the slow jet was plugged then cleared out after a while. It was running pretty good after 20 minutes of riding it & I had to keep backing out the idle screw. It still doesn't idle very smooth. I'm going to try it from a cold start in the AM. Thanks for info guys.
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Post by wyldbill on May 24, 2011 22:10:19 GMT -5
One more thing, confessions time. I think oneof my problems before was that I had the parking brake on the whole time I kept trying to run it in the shop. So when I cracked the throttle it was pushing against a stuck rear tire. :-[
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Post by edfr on May 24, 2011 22:26:12 GMT -5
Wyldbill, Hey happens to the best of us, at least you are honest about it. I do not think none of us would have thought to ask that question. Lefty
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Post by smokiestover on May 24, 2011 23:42:01 GMT -5
One more thing, confessions time. I think oneof my problems before was that I had the parking brake on the whole time I kept trying to run it in the shop. So when I cracked the throttle it was pushing against a stuck rear tire. :-[ I had mine for 3 months before I even knew it had a parking Brake. ;D I was removing the nut on the rear wheel to replace a flat tire and could not quite hold the rear wheel still with one hand while braking the nut loose with a 1/2" breaker bar in the other hand. So a friend who was watching just walked over and put the parking brake on. The brake wouldn't hold the wheel by itself, but between it and my hands I did brake it loose.
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Post by smokiestover on May 25, 2011 1:32:32 GMT -5
Like litinrod said on another thread, the Honda Elite 80 is not mechanic friendly.
Best thing I can say it that regards is that things you expect to work without fail as long as they do on any other motor vehicle I have owned (wiring, switches, lights, starters, charging system, ignition system, controls, etc ...indeed do! You would never tear one of these down from the get-go (or 10 years later) looking for defective or substandard materials and parts and unfinished work.
But the routine maintenance, other than oil changes, requires both mechanical experience and quick learning skills.
Let it sit and gum up the carb, then you are in for a real learning experience....something you will not want to repeat! But in the process, you will learn that you can clear almost all jet problems by leaving the carb mounted and removing the bowl, slow speed jet, main jet, main jet holder (watch out for the needle jet that may fall out when spraying upward with carb cleaner....small end goes up and the jet needle runs through it) from below. Pull the A/F screw and the rubber boot from carb to airbox and give the small passage ways several sprays of carb cleaner followed by air.
One tip on the slow speed jet.....there is a very fine screen located between the bottom of the jet and the emulsifier tube....you can not run a wire through it without damaging it. Remove it and let it soak in carb cleaner for several day, then blow it out with carb cleaner and check it by looking threw it. Or better yet, just install a new one.
Also, to be sure you have the carb bolts tightned evenly (the ones that screw onto the studs at the front of the carb), you must remove the rear wheel and inner fender. I learned this when my carb shook loose after running over one too many miles of rough gravel patched thaw damaged roads just last month (loose 2" crushed limestone). If it aint tight, the air leak will get worse and worse making it idle rough and rougher and eventually ruin the motor.
You have to adjust the valves. Just go to Harbor Freight and pick-up an entire set of gap gauges for 2 or 3 dollars.....make sure the set includes .05 mm (.002"), or better yet, .06 mm (.0025)". Turn the flywheel clockwise till you see the intake valve open then close, then keep turning till the "T" mark (the long line left of or counter-clockwise from the "T") lines up with the index mark on the engine case; the two fine index marks on the cam gear will then be lined up with the top surface of the head. Best to remove the plug first. I use a very large screw driver tied to the scoot frame and gently wedged between the blower fins to hold the alignment. You want just slight drag on the oiled gap guage when you push it to and fro inline with the centerline of the cam. It's damn tight working there so I use a 5" box end wrench ground down on the top and bottom so as to give me enough room to get a good finger grip on the valve adjusters (the things with the square heads on top). Finger tighten the valve adjuster down onto the gap guage, finger tighten the lock nut, then tighten the nut while watching to be sure the adjuster does not turn.....the threads will jam, lifting the adjuster every so slightly and your guage should now slide to and fro smoothly with slight drag. You can then hold the adjuster with a small adjustable wrench or vice grips and tighten the lock nut a hair more. These are small so don't over do it. Spin the motor over by hand several times, line up the timing marks and double check both valves again.
You should not run the motor for more than a few minutes without the fan cover. It will not run good without the exhaust installed or with it leaking....running it too long that wayr will burn the exhaust valve.
If the A/F screw has the limiter cap on it, just turn in all the way out. If not, turn it in gently till it bottoms, then back it out 1-1/2 to 1-3/4 turns. Can't adjust further without intalling exhaust with new crush gasket. A good start for the idle speed is 4 turns out. You end up adjusting it so that the motor never dies when started cold. You might have to slighlty crack the throttle when starting from cold (cooled down to ambient temp).
Drain the oil from the crankcase vent drain tube....clear tubing with band clamp, center scoot, bottom, left side. Make sure all the vent lines are tight. One runs from valve cover to the side of the oil gas seperator, the other fro the top of the seperator to the air tube between carb and airbox.
At 4000 miles, you need a new air filter. Be sure to get it all the way in. angle it in and wiggle and twist it into the rubber nipple while working the opposite side of the filter in. Helps if at the same time you use one finger on the other hand to curl over, in ,around and down the outside of the nipple with a slight pull out. The filter will pop onto the nipple whilst popping into the retaining part of the air box.
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Post by wyldbill on May 25, 2011 5:46:29 GMT -5
wow Thanks smokiestover! I will be printing out your reply & keeping it on file LOL!! How important is it to replace that exhuast gasket? I really want to get this thing back to the owner & if I have to change that (order the part) it's going to push back the date I return it to him,..although I have enjoyed riding it ;D
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Post by wyldbill on May 25, 2011 5:48:31 GMT -5
I tried starting it this morning. WAY better. It idled better & I could actually give it some throttle without it stalling. Now it is not smooth or running that good but it does want to stay running better so that is good. I'll try again when I get home & take it for a ride. ;D
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Post by smokiestover on May 25, 2011 19:07:59 GMT -5
wow Thanks smokiestover! I will be printing out your reply & keeping it on file LOL!! How important is it to replace that exhuast gasket? I really want to get this thing back to the owner & if I have to change that (order the part) it's going to push back the date I return it to him,..although I have enjoyed riding it ;D If you don't mind messing with the body panels twice and you put exhaust back on, he can ride it for the time it takes to get the exhaust pipe gasket.
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