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Post by scottish1 on Mar 25, 2011 0:57:16 GMT -5
I have a Qlink 150 Pegasus Chinese scooter that now has 700 miles on it. It ran flawlessly for the first 300 miles but now I have an intermittent problem and it seems to be one of overheating.
I adjusted the valves because I read that that can cause overheating when a scooter warms up when they are too tight. The first time I adjusted them I got them much too loose and the motor was clacking but the second time around I was able to dial them in just right as the scooter runs fine motor wise. The inspection port to find top dead center was totally useless as I could see NO markings whatsoever inside the port. So i used a phillips head to put in the spark plug hole to find that the piston was on top all the way and then aligned two bolts on the chain sprocket casing edge to find TDC.
Now and then when my scooter has fully warmed up, it will bog down and begin not to be able to accelerate. This happens usually when it is very hot outside and I am stopping a lot at intersections, and it has happened when running faster up to the high end about 50 mph for a short length of time. I do not abuse my scooter or run it hard and fast a lot.
When it starts to heat up, the temp gauge of course starts to increase up towards redline and i can feel an extreme amount of heat when I put my hand up to the plastic near to and behind the radiator. To fix this situation, all I need to do is stop for a short length of time and then the scooter will start up and run fine.
The dealer told me to change out the crappy antifreeze which i did, and to make sure the water pump is free of any junk which i did, and also before replacing the antifreeze to make sure the system is fully flushed out as possible, which i did.
Basically I have improved the situation by making sure my valves are just right and doing what I could with the coolant. But tonight on a very cool night I ran it for a short time on a smooth road a bit faster than I normally would, about fifty mph, and there was the heat again and I had to pull over and stop because it will not accelerate when it begins to over heat. I stopped and waited a very short time and then bammo I was riding just fine again.
So, my question becomes.. is this something I will be seeing a lot of? overheating? Much has been said about these scoots having this problem but I am perplexed that it seems to run so well and solid but then suddenly it decides it wants to overheat. It seems to me that the coolant is not circulating properly when this happens. I have no idea why the scoot bogs down and will not accelerate when this happens.
I am thinking maybe a thermostat issue? Fan does come on it seems maybe a bit too often even when its cold outside when idling. Does the thermostat actually control the amount of coolant flow?
Any ideas? thank you
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Post by edfr on Mar 25, 2011 1:21:02 GMT -5
The fan should come on when it reaches around 260 or so to cool it off, so the fan will cycle off and on. You may have Air Bubbles in the cooling system and you have to get the bubbles out for the water to flow that is probably your problem. Lefty
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Post by scottish1 on Mar 25, 2011 4:14:39 GMT -5
Thank you yes I did do that trick where you fill the radiator, wiggle the scoot and look for bubbles, then refill. Then you put cap on, start it up and let it warm up and do that again. After doing that the other day it seemed to have worked, at least until today when I posted my problem. I have to agree that perhaps an air pocket in the system might lock up the cooling system now and then. But is there a better way to really know? A better way to be sure it is bleeded all the way? thank you
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Post by Bluefront on Mar 25, 2011 4:31:20 GMT -5
It sure sounds like an over-heating problem.......I'd suggest buying a temperature gun (Harbor Freight has them). You can go around the engine, hoses, radiator and find the hot/cold spots, and you can tell if the thing is really overheating (not just a bad temp gauge or sensor). If you find a coolant hose that's much cooler than the other places.......indicates a coolant flow problem (possibly an air pocket, not just bubbles). The air pocket can be at the water-pump.....which limits the amount of coolant being circulated. This pocket needs to be bled out somehow.....sometimes running the scoot with the reservoir cap open for long periods at a fast idle will do it. Some vehicles have a bleeder port on the highest point of the engine, or the highest point of the cooling system. These air pockets can be a bear to remove. The thermostat is another possible failure point....the thing opens/closes depending on the temperature of the coolant. They sometimes get stuck in one position......if the engine is hot and the thermostat is supposed to be fully open, but is stuck shut or only partially open, the engine will overheat. Replacement is the only fix for that..... Since your radiator fan is working, it appears like the sensor and fan are ok. But check for obstructed airflow in front of the fan/radiator.....and behind it. That is an issue with some scoots. Tough problem you got. Good luck....even experienced mechanics have trouble with such problems. The usual mechanic at a scooter shop (a kid) will be at a total loss. Thank God my scoot is air-cooled.....
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Post by scottish1 on Mar 25, 2011 5:14:00 GMT -5
very good suggestions thanks. I am for sure going to try running the scoot at fast idle with the cap open and try to wiggle out any more bubbles. I think I have pretty good airflow over the radiator, it seems to be vented nicely. Your suggestion about the thermostat really seems plausible considering especially that the problem is intermittent but only when I am running it warmed up. If it decides to get 'sticky' sometimes it might just be a relatively easy fix. Will try, thanks.
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Post by Bluefront on Mar 25, 2011 7:41:48 GMT -5
The air pockets can develop if there's a small coolant leak somewhere, or if all the air pockets were not bled out properly after a coolant flush.....or even at the initial fill-up at the factory. Also coolant does evaporate somewhat, and needs to be topped up occasionally. Some cars are very difficult to bleed properly....one trick was to jack up the front end of the car a bunch, attach a big funnel to the coolant tank, filled partially up....run it at a fast idle for quite a while. (you'd see bubbles coming up to the level in the funnel). You can help this along by squeezing the radiator hoses in/out while the bleeding is going on. There is also a possibility that there is a blockage somewhere in the system that hasn't been flushed completely..... Another possibility that may be present.....a poorly designed cooling system, that simply doesn't cool properly even when everything is working normally. I've heard about such problems on certain model scoots.....but don't know about your own scoot. Another possibility....a bad cap on the coolant tank. (can let air in the system) See why I don't care for water-cooling......
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Post by pugzila on Mar 25, 2011 11:27:21 GMT -5
Scottish1, Question: Is the Pegasus a 2006 or early 2007 model? Those are notorious for cooling problems.
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Post by scottish1 on Mar 25, 2011 20:09:57 GMT -5
This is a 2009 Pegasus 150. I read about earlier problems as well and was hopeful they had it sorted out. I'm now looking into getting a new thermostat just to be sure it is not a sticky one. At this point I do believe it is an air pocket or the thermostat or both that is causing it. So I am going to bleed it really really good and run it for a few hundred miles and see what develops. So far the thermostat looks like an inexpensive part but I am checking on what one to order so not sure. So far I am pretty happy with it, it has not made me walk home yet. But it does act like it wants to.
I'd like to get a iridium spark plug for it but in looking around I cannot find the specification for which NGK part number it is. If someone knows the right one, would love to know. Thanks all.
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Post by scottish1 on Mar 25, 2011 21:12:58 GMT -5
oh and... I live in Arizona. The air here in the summer is like sticking your head in an oven and closing it when a turkey is cooking. That's why I went for the water cooled 4 stroke. So if I'm having cooling issues now.... just wait until summer. yikes thats why im trying to get all the info i can.
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Post by apittington on Mar 26, 2011 5:29:41 GMT -5
Does the temp ever actually reach the red zone? Cuz it is normal for your engine temp to climb quite high in stop and go traffic, which freaks many people out, if they are used to the near rock steady temp readings you see on a car. My ninja 250 has to get all the way up to right before the red zone before the fan comes on, and that is normal behaviour for the bike. It has never once actually made it into the red zone. That does not solve your bogging problem, but if its not getting all the way into red, hopefully it will solve your overheating fears, so you can solve the other problem. By the way, I also live in phoenix, hope to see you on the road, or ride with ya some time Adrian
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Post by rockynv on Mar 26, 2011 6:03:37 GMT -5
How old is the bike? 700 miles and it is just breaking in so it may now be running a bit lean which could make it get a bit hot. It is getting warmer out now so it may be time to put in your summer lube and possibly time to switch to synthetic. Also have you tried upping the fuel grade a notch? Some SeaFoam or Berrymans fuel system cleaner may be in order also in case anything is gummed up from poor quality fuel.
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Post by apittington on Mar 26, 2011 6:20:55 GMT -5
Also, if you are in fact actualy over heating, I would be willing to bet your bogging problem is the reason, rather than the other way around. I have been told that most scoots are tuned lean from the factory, and running lean would generate more heat. Have you tried adjusting your a/f mixture? There are some really good guides in the how to section if you're unsure how.
Adrian
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Post by Bluefront on Mar 26, 2011 7:22:27 GMT -5
^^^^I'm willing to bet the bogging problems as described are not the result of lean carburetor jetting. Running out of fuel like from a clogged fuel filter or a failing fuel pump could cause the symptoms, as could a number of other issues.
I'd start by determining if actual over-heating is going on.....using a digital heat gun, or some other external means. Relying on the temperature gauge on the scoot may not be accurate.....if an air pocket exists at the point of the sensor (for instance), the engine may be on the verge of a melt-down, but the gauge might read normal.
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Post by scottish1 on Mar 26, 2011 18:13:05 GMT -5
you know what.. you guys are really amazing and right on the money as far as what i am thinking because today i bogged down several times and lost acceleration. and you know what.. it was running fine temp wise! It did cause things in the cooling system to heat up instead of the other way around! I believe now that it is starving for, or has a fuel issue, and yes it surely is in the break in period. so i can see you big dawgs really know what you are talking about. so good call truly, was amazed to find these posts here today.
I picked up some good quality fuel lines today to install along with a new fuel filter. I have heard this is a good idea AND I see that there is a T junction in the fuel line right before the carb and the stock (aka crappy) fuel lines are precariously bent in sharp corners in there. Hopefully this post will help others because it shows that these water cooled scoots are VERY sensitive to things that can cause them to heat up.
I stopped by a bike shop and picked up a new NGK iridium spark plug as well. The new spark plug that replaces the stock one for my QLink Pegasus 150, also known as Chinese generic model, is called NGK spark plug #7803, DPR7EIX-9.
I ride every day about fifty miles so I'll keep y'all posted. Thanks again for the great posts I am now looking into learning about lean running and adjustments I can make as it breaks in. 750 miles and counting. I installed the new spark plug right at the shop and it ran sweet the rest of the way home.
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Post by sprocket on Mar 26, 2011 19:14:18 GMT -5
750 miles?...set your valve gaps
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Post by tvnacman on Mar 26, 2011 20:56:30 GMT -5
be sure the fan is spinning in the correct direction
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Post by edfr on Mar 26, 2011 21:33:48 GMT -5
And here is something to help you out with the Carb adjustment. Lefty ADJUSTING YOUR AIR/FUEL MIXTURE:
YOU WANT THE HIGHEST RPMS OUT OF THE AIR/FUEL MIXTURE SCREW:
This is for you common CV Carbs that have the Air Fuel Mixture Screw Near the INTAKE goint to the Engine. Other Carbs may have the Air/Fuel Mixture On the Air Filter Side with those JUST CHANGE the WORDS "CLOCKWISE to COUNTER CLOCKWISE" and "COUNTER CLOCKWISE to CLOCKWISE" other than that same thing applies.
Before you start it Turn the Air/Fuel Mixture Screw CLOCKWISE UNTIL IT STOPS do not tighten it just until it stops BUT COUNT how many TURNS IT TOOK TO CLOSE it. Then Turn it COUNTER CLOCKWISE the same amount of turns back to where it was. Then Start your scoot and Get The Engine Nice and Hot about 10 minutes so that the Enricher is no longer Allowing Extra Fuel to come in. Then do the following to fine tune the Air/Fuel Ratio:
RICHEN THE AIR/FUEL MIXTURE: 1. Turn the Air/Fuel Mixture COUNTER CLOCKWISE 1/4 turn and wait 10-15 seconds to let the engine catch up with the new setting. a. If the RPMS go up REPEAT 1 UNTIL the RPMS GO DOWN OR NO CHANGE. b. Then TURN the Air/Fuel Mixture 1/8 CLOCKWISE and that should be your highest Air/Fuel Mixture setting , GO TO 3.
*****If on the FIRST 1/4 TURN from the STARTING Position IN #1 ABOVE the RPMS GO DOWN OR NO CHANGE , turn the Air/Fuel Mixture Back the 1/4 turn to the Starting position and wait 10-15 seconds until the engine catchs up and go to #2*****
LEAN THE AIR/FUEL MIXTURE: 2. Turn the Air/Fuel Mixture CLOCKWISE 1/4 turn and wait 10-15 seconds to let the engine catch up with the new setting. a. If the RPMS go up REPEAT 2 UNTIL the RPMS GO DOWN OR NO CHANGE. b. Then TURN the Air/Fuel Mixture 1/8 COUNTER CLOCKWISE and that should be your highest Air/Fuel Mixture setting, GO TO 3.
IDLE SPEED SCREW: 3. If after adjusting your Air/Fuel Mixture your idle is to fast Turn the IDLE SPEED SCREW COUNTER CLOCKWISE until your Rear Wheel JUST Barely wants to Turn or around 1500-1800 rpms.
4. If 1 or 2 above DOES NOT produce any RPM Change you most likely have a CLOGGED PILOT JET "OR" you did not get the ENGINE HOT ENOUGH and you were working against the ENRICHER which has not yet closed off the extra fuel. If the engine was nice and hot running for about 10 minutes and the Enricher was off then its time to take off the Carb and Clean out the Jets and all the Carb Passages.
If adjusted correctly you should be able to give the Throttle a QUICK half turn and the Engine should REV UP with no bogging hesitation and get a nice VROOOOOOOOOOOM. The Rpms should come down nice and settle at the Rpms you set yo
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Post by apittington on Mar 27, 2011 1:20:46 GMT -5
If you need some help, and are in phoenix, I would be willing. I do all my own work , as I have had bad experience with 2 of local scoot service places (ie: $400 quote for a valve adjustment, because they mistook the egr pipe on the head, for part of the frame, and thought they would have to remove the engine to do it. And a 48 hour, $80 oil change, that they half assed any way). I have a garage, so I try to put it to good use. if I was able to help, I am very glad. I am by no means an expert. Shoot me a pm and I'll give you some contact info if needed, otherwise I hope to hear you solved the problem, and see you on the road! Adrian Ps: Edfr/Lefty = scooter god, do what he says
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Post by scottish1 on Mar 29, 2011 0:29:39 GMT -5
okay ! lots to think about but here is the latest w 800+ miles on the scooter. I have already attended to my valve adjustment, and have put in an iridium spark plug. I was able to recreate my bogging down problem many times recently (mostly because it has gotten worse). At first when it would bog down (it will not run normally and accelerate after it does this) I pulled over and switched off the ignition and then started up immediately again. I did run for a few hundred feet fine but then it bogged down again. This was to test whether it was possibly the rev limiter or cdi or coil that needed to recycle with ignition off before I could start again. At first when I took off I thought, voila it's electrical! But then I tested and realized that the longer I remain stopped after bogging down, the longer the scooter would run properly thereafter. So, it's a fuel/air problem. So, I have all new vacuum lines, fuel lines, hose clamps, fuel filter (and even a new main fuse replacement) all ready to install once i tear down the plastics and fairings. (as per instructions by the scooter pdi x1scooters.com/pdi.html). I can easily see that this MUST be done in order to eliminate the inferior air and fuel handling lines from being the problem. Frankly I am confident that it will restore dependable operation to my scooter, however even if it does not, I will know then that carb adjust and/or electrical components failing under heat would be my next step. Thanks for the offer of helping me out locally but with my work schedule I pretty much have to do it myself to find the time. After much reading about others with a similar problem I can see that going through a scooter as described in the pdi is pretty much an absolute must. I am convinced that tracking down the reason for bogging down would be next to impossible without going through the entire fuel/air system and replacing it. Also, I don't think my gas cap has a vent (at least I cannot find it). I have not tried the idea of running with the gas cap a bit loose to see if that is the problem, but you can be sure that if replacing all the lines does NOT work then that will be the first thing I try. ok here goes, time to tear down scooter and get to work. It'll take me a few days and I'll let you know what the outcome is.
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Post by scottish1 on Mar 29, 2011 0:34:03 GMT -5
p.s. and of course I will keeping a sharp eye out for bad electrical connections which also is known to cause bogging down problems.
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Post by scottish1 on Mar 29, 2011 0:43:30 GMT -5
p.s.s. and of course the adjustment of the carb as described by edfr will become VERY important after going through all my lines. I figure it's just as well I try that AFTER I go through the upgrade of the fuel/air components since it may cause my idle and adjustments to be a bit quirky with all new flow and venting. sigh.... i now know WAY more than anyone should have to know to make my scooter sweet but it's so damn fun to ride that it's all worth it. out for now.
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Post by apittington on Mar 29, 2011 4:47:20 GMT -5
Sounds like a good plan! Keep us updated!
Adrian
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Post by Bluefront on Mar 29, 2011 6:27:37 GMT -5
^^^^^I've never much liked the "shotgun" approach to fixing things, although that's the way a lot of shops do it. After listening to more info about your problem......it's beginning to sound fuel-related.
The gas tank must have a venting system......or gas flow out of the thing will slow drastically, or even stop completely. Many scoots have a tiny hole in the gas cap (all three of my scoots are like this). The other way I know about involves an external carbon cannister to collect fumes. This thing has an electrical/vacuum control system to vent the fumes.
If the control system for this device should fail, the gas tank will not be venting properly.....so after a short ride the fuel flow slows, and the scooter stops running. Letting the thing sit for a while allows he pressures to equalize, and fuel flow from the tank resumes (for a while).
Riding around with a loose gas cap will bypass this vent system. If the scooter then runs normal.....you have found the real problem, and can then figure out the fix (which may be a simple loose/pinched vacuum hose).
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Post by scottish1 on Mar 29, 2011 16:11:01 GMT -5
point taken ill try that first
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Post by scottish1 on Mar 30, 2011 0:25:58 GMT -5
Ok here is the results of the test ride. When bypassing the vent system by loosening the gas cap there is still a major problem, in fact I bogged down and lost power and had to restart exactly at the same place on the road I did before, which was after about 8 miles of driving. It seems to be getting worse as the scooter is now hesitating which it has rarely done before, however when it hesitated before was when I knew it would bog down soon. So, back to main plan which is to replace the fuel filter, fuel lines and air lines, and check under the hood for issues not yet seen. Time to tear it down. GAAAAAAAA oh well.
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Post by apittington on Mar 30, 2011 1:42:39 GMT -5
Well at least it's ruled out as a problem. I am still betting it's a fuel delivery problem, and replacing the cheap chinese fuel/vac lines and filter, or tuning the carb will solve the problem. When your in there check your intake for cracks. And when your tuning the carb it is very important that your engine is nice and warmed up. When your playing with the carb, if the diaphragm is on top, open up the top and check the rubber diaphragm for cracks and tears, though I don't expect you will find any after only 800 miles, worse has happened in less time. All these things are cheap and easy to fix. Don't panic, don't rush, and don't loose screws.
Adrian
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Post by Bluefront on Mar 30, 2011 4:59:13 GMT -5
FWIW.....the fact that the problem occurs after about the same amount of ride time, and can be duplicated, is a clue to all this. If the problem is a simple carb clog, a gas or vacuum line issue, the problem would be constant......or intermittent (like a piece of crap in the float-bowl blocking flow from time-to-time). But....back to the original diagnosis of overheating. Perhaps it is an electrical malfunction like a CDI/coil failure. They can and do fail after a set amount of time while riding due to heat build-up. Also....I think your scoot may be running a DC fired ignition. That means if the battery voltage is dropping too low while riding, the ignition system may fail. Have you ever checked battery voltage when the problem is happening? And....you have a fuel pump of some sort. These certainly can fail, but not usually after a set amount of time. You've got some work to do........
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Post by scottish1 on Mar 30, 2011 5:40:17 GMT -5
It's a bit after 3 a.m. took less time than I thought to put in new air and fuel lines and fuel filter. The new glass filter is larger than I thought it would be on the picture's I've seen. I'll put the fairings back on tomorrow and see how it runs. I did start it up and it idled nicely albeit a bit high probably because the bore of the new fuel line and air lines is a bit bigger. So I tuned the idle down a bit and it seems to run smooth at first glance. It vrooms nicely but I didn't check much so I wouldnt wake up the neighbors. Checked for cracks on the intake don't see any will inspect in daylight as well.
Either way I can see that the old fuel air lines are rubbery and thin and stretch way too easily and the new ones are much more substantial. Since the scoot was hesitating before bogging down I am hoping that the much freer flowing air and fuel will help. Once it bogs down it does start to overheat can see the gauge move up but not quite to redline. I am also thinking cdi/coil if this doesnt cure it. Will check the diaphragm and have a good look at the carb and adjust after new test ride.
It should be pretty easy to tell if this has made a big difference. The jury is still out but we will know soon if we can wrap this up. All I have to do is ride it on the same path I did before, lol. Let's hope I get THAT far with all the new fuel and air my carb may be way out of whack. GAAAAAAA k.. time for sleep and not panic. p.s. That last test ride was really a bummer because of the motor starting to hesitate, it has not done that very much at all previously.
I was surprised that no fuel came out the fuel nipple under the tank when I took off the fuel line. That is probably because there is a vacuum line attached to that thingie under the tank where the nipple is. When I started it up the fuel filter filled up about halfway right away as it should and it needed no priming at all to keep running. I bring this up because maybe my crappy air lines were not actuating the flow right from the tank bottom thingie. (diaphgram?) ok ok test ride soon. can't wait. out.
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Post by scottish1 on Mar 30, 2011 6:02:47 GMT -5
quick reply.. have not checked battery voltage regarding all this. But I do see that my iights and high beams are all very strong even with this bogging down issue so I have tended to rule out the battery itself. gaaaa sleep zzzzzz
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Post by sprocket on Mar 30, 2011 19:06:49 GMT -5
Ya, that thing under the tank is the 'petcock'. It is a vacuum activated fuel flow switch...engine on..fuel flows...engine off, fuel stops.. it is a safety thing...
They often go bad and cause problems...
Replace all those terrible spring clips on vacuum and fuel lines with 5" nylon zip ties. Pull them tight with pliers...you will never have a vacuum or fuel leak...!
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