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Post by piaggio150 on Jan 11, 2011 23:13:13 GMT -5
Hey all,
I purchased a Piaggio Fly 150cc in August and have been enjoying it ever since. There is only one issue that I have, and I was wondering if you all had experiences or thoughts on it. Driving around (stop and go style) it drives wonderfully, however, when I get onto a straight away for say around a mile or two and open up the throttle, after staying around top-end for awhile it will downshift and eventually kill. It is almost as if it is not getting gas. It is very frustrating because I have to pull over and restart.
Have any of you all ever experienced something similar or know what the problem may be? Also, if you need more explanation please let me know.
Thanks,
AF
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Post by rockynv on Jan 11, 2011 23:34:08 GMT -5
Hey all, I purchased a Piaggio Fly 150cc in August and have been enjoying it ever since. There is only one issue that I have, and I was wondering if you all had experiences or thoughts on it. Driving around (stop and go style) it drives wonderfully, however, when I get onto a straight away for say around a mile or two and open up the throttle, after staying around top-end for awhile it will downshift and eventually kill. It is almost as if it is not getting gas. It is very frustrating because I have to pull over and restart. Have any of you all ever experienced something similar or know what the problem may be? Also, if you need more explanation please let me know. Thanks, AF The Fly 150 has a max speed of 61 MPH and if you exceed that, it may cut out from overspeed protection so you do not damage the motor. What does your Piaggio dealer say about this? |
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Post by piaggio150 on Jan 12, 2011 0:19:35 GMT -5
That sounds like a very logical explanation. I have not yet asked the dealer because I wanted to get some ideas before I brought it in. I am approaching my 2000 mile check-up so I was going to bring it up then.
Thanks!
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Post by lshigham on Jan 12, 2011 4:12:02 GMT -5
I've never heard of such a thing on Piaggio's. I'd ask your dealer to take a look at it, sounds like fuel starvation.
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Post by lshigham on Jan 12, 2011 4:15:10 GMT -5
Thinking about this logically, Piaggio would never engineer a scoot to cut out if it went too fast. That would be downright dangerous. They are known to have rev limiters, there was one on mine at 11500 RPM.
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Post by rockynv on Jan 12, 2011 5:45:55 GMT -5
Thinking about this logically, Piaggio would never engineer a scoot to cut out if it went too fast. That would be downright dangerous. They are known to have rev limiters, there was one on mine at 11500 RPM. If you don't let off and keep on pushing to the limiter you can foul the plug so it will eventually cut out completely. Eventually the engine can fail totally and not restart without a major repair. My bike is designed for a max of 55 so I know that if I push it to 60 + and it starts to falter that I need to back off or it will cut out completely and require some quality roadside time to restart. The fuel drain verified that there is not a fuel starvation issue however heat stress can also be a factor where I live. |
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Post by lshigham on Jan 12, 2011 7:44:40 GMT -5
Thinking about this logically, Piaggio would never engineer a scoot to cut out if it went too fast. That would be downright dangerous. They are known to have rev limiters, there was one on mine at 11500 RPM. If you don't let off and keep on pushing to the limiter you can foul the plug so it will eventually cut out completely. Eventually the engine can fail totally and not restart without a major repair. My bike is designed for a max of 55 so I know that if I push it to 60 + and it starts to falter that I need to back off or it will cut out completely and require some quality roadside time to restart. The fuel drain verified that there is not a fuel starvation issue however heat stress can also be a factor where I live. A fuel drain doesn't tell us that there's enough fuel for extended WOT operation, it must be getting fuel to some extent, otherwise it wouldn't run. The rev limiters are set very high, on flat ground it should be impossible to hit it. It's possible the coil is overheating and cutting out. |
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Post by ce on Jan 12, 2011 9:52:17 GMT -5
its fuel starvation the fuel pump is not getting enough vaccuum at wot to keep up with demand maybe an air leak at one of the vac line fittings or undersized connectors
check all fittings and clamps
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Post by rockynv on Jan 13, 2011 22:59:46 GMT -5
Fuel starvation if you don't push it will resolve itself by backing off on the throttle. Fuel flow out of the carb is reduced, the petcock or fuel pump then gets more vacuum and more fuel starts flowing back into the carb bowl which should get you going again without stopping.
Anyway we do not know the speeds involved here and we are talking about a higher end scooter with a dealer network and a 1 or 2 year parts and labor warranty that is only 5 months into the warranty period. If the bike is not being run overspeed then that is one matter and covered under warranty however if it is being run overspeed then we are talking about use beyond the bikes design limits which can be viewed as cause to void the warranty.
If I bought a new Piaggio, Vespa, Aprilia, Honda, Suzuki or Yamaha scoot which usually carry a premium price tag and have a servicing dealer to take care of both the parts and labor for warranty repairs then I would not want to push things and void the warranty.
AF - If this is only happening when you try to run at speeds over 61 mph then don't run over 61 mph however if you get this at speeds below 61 then see the dealer and let him and Piaggio deal with it.
In the meantime when it starts to falter let off on the throttle immediatly and if the bike picks back up it is lack of fuel otherwise it could be anything from a need for a valve adjustment to an ignition component overheating and shutting down.
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Post by piaggio150 on Jan 20, 2011 14:07:04 GMT -5
Thanks for all of the responses! It is not that I am trying to over run the bike at higher than normal speeds, the bike is completely stock. It is just that when I am on a larger road traveling at near max speed (roughly 55) for too long then the scooter will downshift (lose power) and make me pull over to restart. I do let off of the throttle for a short time, then when I try throttle up again it will sputter and go. Moreover, it will get power then lose it, until eventually I am on the shoulder.
I think that my best bet is to take it too the dealer. I was just trying to avoid some high labor costs.
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Post by rockynv on Jan 20, 2011 23:48:23 GMT -5
Thanks for all of the responses! It is not that I am trying to over run the bike at higher than normal speeds, the bike is completely stock. It is just that when I am on a larger road traveling at near max speed (roughly 55) for too long then the scooter will downshift (lose power) and make me pull over to restart. I do let off of the throttle for a short time, then when I try throttle up again it will sputter and go. Moreover, it will get power then lose it, until eventually I am on the shoulder. I think that my best bet is to take it too the dealer. I was just trying to avoid some high labor costs. I have been presuming that you bought the Fly new in August and if this is so then it should not cost you anything to fix it so it will travel at or below its rated speed without cutting out. 55 is below its max so you should not be having a problem. My Lance is rated at 52 but I can run at 55 until the cows come home. It is only when I try to overspeed to 65 or so that it starts to cut out. I was out of town and did not realise the 45 mph State road I was on had a long 65 mph section with no exits where there were logging trucks going 70 to 80 to contend with. If this is a new bike that your pruchased less than a year ago make it known that this is a warranty issue and not billable. Even if you are the second owner or the bike was a rental the Piaggio warranty covers all subsequent owners during the first year the bike was put in service. As long as you are not abusing the bike, are having it properly maintained and are using the right grade of fuel then you should be all set. You are not cheating on the fuel grade right? That is one gotcha that they will use to void the warranty especially if the problem is determined to be predetonation damage from using too low a grade of gasoline. |
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Post by piaggio150 on Jan 21, 2011 4:05:39 GMT -5
Rocky,
Actually, I purchased the scooter second-hand, it is a 2006, so there is no opportunity for warranty.
Which grade fuel are you supposed to use for a scooter? I have been putting 87, which if too low would obviously be a source of problem (the previous owner told me that is what it took).
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Post by lshigham on Jan 21, 2011 4:22:15 GMT -5
If you can't hear any pinging don't worry about the fuel grade. If it's too low you would know without having to go WOT for a long time. Rocky, there is no such thing as predetonation, you are confusing pre-ignition with detonation. If it was pre-ignition the scoot would probably be dead by now. Detonation makes a metallic 'ping' sound.
I still think it's electrical, the ignition coil or CDI. I don't think the Fly comes with a combined unit, so start with the coil. There is a possibility the valves are out of spec, so are tightening up and causing compression loss when the scoot gets hot.
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Post by rockynv on Jan 21, 2011 5:35:16 GMT -5
If you can't hear any pinging don't worry about the fuel grade. If it's too low you would know without having to go WOT for a long time. Rocky, there is no such thing as predetonation, you are confusing pre-ignition with detonation. If it was pre-ignition the scoot would probably be dead by now. Detonation makes a metallic 'ping' sound. I still think it's electrical, the ignition coil or CDI. I don't think the Fly comes with a combined unit, so start with the coil. There is a possibility the valves are out of spec, so are tightening up and causing compression loss when the scoot gets hot. See: www.motorcycleanchor.com/motorcycle/how_to/mc_octane.html |
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Post by Bluefront on Jan 21, 2011 6:57:35 GMT -5
Tell you what, since you appear to be out of any warranty. This is the sort of problem a dealer will have problems solving (probably), since the problem only occurs after a long road test. This also means the mechanic will be out on the road somewhere when the symptoms start-up. Not the ideal place to start checking for problems.....
What usually happens....the mechanic will start guessing at the problem, and recommend things like a valve adjustment, a carb cleaning, gas tank flush, new spark plug.....maybe new coil and CDI. Gets real expensive, real quick.
Eventually the problem will no doubt be solved by throwing parts and service at it....but at great expense. I'd suggest doing everything you can before going to a dealer. A big part of a service bill will be labor these days.....usually $50-$100 per hour. Avoid that part of the bill by doing homework on these problems, and by getting your hands dirty with your own labor.
Good luck....
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Post by chromestarhustler on Jan 21, 2011 18:25:56 GMT -5
you have run out of vacuum, your vacuum is very low at top end your vacuum can not support the fuel pump for that extended time at high revs low vacuum, make a make shift gravity fuel tank, ie 2 or even 1 liter bottle with a fuel line connector glued into the cap, with a small hole opposite end of it to act as a vent, rig it up to the carb and take a long hard ride, if it dont die you gots a vacuum leak or a fuel pump that worn out and not up to suff anymore.
similar problem on my velocity on hard hauls at max throotle across town solved with a fancy fuel pump from a snow mobile raided from ce's parts bin.
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Post by ootscoot on Jan 21, 2011 19:47:40 GMT -5
there should be a little label by the gas tank, warning about over filling - the evap cannisters can fill up w/ gas, causing a vacuum situation in the tank - harder to release fuel especially under demand...
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Post by piaggio150 on Jan 22, 2011 0:02:38 GMT -5
Bluefront, you are absolutely correct, those high expenses were exactly what I was trying to avoid. Being that I didn't pay all that much and will eventually be selling it back, I am looking for anyway to beat that cost. you have run out of vacuum, your vacuum is very low at top end your vacuum can not support the fuel pump for that extended time at high revs low vacuum, make a make shift gravity fuel tank, ie 2 or even 1 liter bottle with a fuel line connector glued into the cap, with a small hole opposite end of it to act as a vent, rig it up to the carb and take a long hard ride, if it dont die you gots a vacuum leak or a fuel pump that worn out and not up to suff anymore. Chrome, do you have more information on this process? I am definitely willing to try it. there should be a little label by the gas tank, warning about over filling - the evap cannisters can fill up w/ gas, causing a vacuum situation in the tank - harder to release fuel especially under demand... I fill it up normally, but never into the neck of the gas tank. If it was being overfilled, wouldn't simply opening the tank once in awhile solve that vacuum issue? Also, even though I haven't gotten to the point where I know which parts I will need, where can I buy parts for a Piaggio? Thanks for all the suggestions!! |
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Post by chromestarhustler on Jan 22, 2011 1:30:40 GMT -5
, basically your gonna make a gravity feed gas tank to see if the problem is fuel related.
stuff needed
gravity tank, can be a water bottle pop bottle, 16 oz is ok i used a bit bigger
drill,
drill bit
super glue
zip ties
some fuel line
gas
stretch of road to try you max speed extended run on
car and friend to follow you should anything go wrong
fire extinguisher,
optional
vacuum gauge
vacuum tube
if you got the willingness unhook the vacuum line that goes to the fuel pump and plug in your vacuum line and run the gauge up to were you can see it on the dash and zip tie it on. this is so you can monitor how much vacuum your creating at high rpm high load . should tell you if you got a leak, or if you just need a higher quality pump, or a new pump.
my velocity would only run about one or two miles at wide open throttle at 52mph before consumption was greater than flow from the pump, because of low vacuum not being able to keep the pump at full rate and would finally suck the fuel bowl dry, stumble and burp for a few seconds and die, then the fuel bowl would fill right back up and it would start again.
(i am at 6000 feet above sea level these scooters are tuned and running hard to reach 55, we only have 80 percent the oxygen that sea level does as exampled by us running 112 main jets and most people in the 125ish range at lower elevations and we aint got the added atmospheric pressure to fill our cylinders with air as easily.)
first your gonna need to find a place to mount your gravity tank, i used a water bottle by some brand, 20 or 24 ouncer. it has to be mounted above the carb, the further above the carb the better. drill a hole in the cap of the bottle slightly smaller than your fuel line and push your fuel line in so about half an inch is past the cap inside the bottle, put a bead of super glue around the outside to seal it up super good. connect your line fuel line to the carb in the shortest most direct route, and the line should not drop below the fuel inlet. fill your fuel bottle up with gas and put the cap on and attach it with the cap facing down, i zip tied mine to the frame. now if you have no leaks punch a hole in the bottom of the water bottle which should be facing up to let air in otherwise fuel isnt gonna flow aint got to be a massive hole but to small and the fuel will stop flowing if enough air can not get in. fire the scooter up and make sure your setup works idle it for a minute or two and them rev it up and hold it for a bit. if it doesnt die from fuel starvation you should be ready for your test.
if done right this gravity tank should easily be able to keep up with fuel demands and the scooter should be able to run wide open throttle til the bottle is empty, scooters like the roketa sicily run these gravity tanks and can be ridden hard for great distances without running out of fuel, but dont run it dry unless you wanna push the scooter back home.
my vacuum never dropped really low, just the lower than normal vacuum coupled with chinese parts equalled running out of fuel. a high tech japanese fuel pump from a snow mobile solved this issue, ask CE the name, i believe it started with mac and ended with goonie, now i can run 5 miles wide open with zero problems, probably farther but thats the longest stretch i could find close to me.
if this solves your problem its fuel pump or vacuum problem, could be a leak, could be misadjusted valves which will cause vacuum to fall off, could be your fuel pump is worn and simply since its got some miles on it is isnt functioning at 100 percent anymore.
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Post by Bluefront on Jan 22, 2011 1:44:20 GMT -5
I appeared to have some lean-out symptoms on long uphill runs this past summer. Rather than any difficult testing, I simply replaced the OEM vacuum petcock with a manual one (on the left). No more symptoms...  Of course this isn't an option for scooters without a gravity-fed carb. |
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Post by chromestarhustler on Jan 22, 2011 1:51:29 GMT -5
his piaggo is pumper not gravity. gravity tanks dont have fuel deliver problems unless the vent get clogged and can not let air in
and i take the stupid tube filter out of the petcock, doesnt let you suck the bottom of the tank and water can collect below it since it has a large standoff, benefit of these crappy gases with ethanol in them is water mixes with it, and that allows it to be mixed in with the gasoline, i also adjusted my roketa tank with some shims to put the outlet side as the lowest part of the tank, so i can suck the tank bone dry.
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Post by Bluefront on Jan 22, 2011 6:15:31 GMT -5
Gravity fed systems certainly can have problems with fuel delivery....if they are equipped with a vacuum shut-off valve like stock valve on the right of the photo. On a long up-hill run the valve may not be getting enough vacuum to remain open.
If you hook up a vacuum gauge......you'll see it drop to almost zero going up hills. It's a wonder the system doesn't give problems to more people.
Gas tank venting is also very important......gas flow out of a tank can almost stop completely if the vent system has a problem. Only takes a very short time....... running with a temporarily loose gas cap can diagnose that problem.
FWIW......the scooters with a fuel injection system use an electric fuel pump, so the gas tank can be located anywhere. But they could still be affected by vacuum issues, which might be used in the gas tank venting system.
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Post by ce on Jan 22, 2011 9:58:26 GMT -5
Chromie's fuel pump is a Mikuni, I got it from a dude in Wisconsin, out of a snowmobile.
It's a dual feed, so we tee'd both fuel outlets together into one, which may be why it has great delivery. I also think it's just an awesome, reliable fuel pump, after all, how are you going to push a snowmobile home, in Wisconsin, in the winter?
That sucker better work.
It may just be a float level issue, too. I dicked around with my float on the F4 because I thought it was overrunning and being too rich, but I set it too low, and it would dry right up at WOT, so I bent it back, and now I don't mess with the float level any more.
Is this Piaggio a China scoot?
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Post by chromestarhustler on Jan 22, 2011 10:32:31 GMT -5
i am going to say that a vacuum problem with the shutoff valve is not a fuel delivery problem, its a vacuum problem. gravity systems are soo reliable the are the choice of many small airplane makers. they aint out no vacuum shutoff valve either for that very reason, just a manual selector (left, right, both and off.)
i live in the Albuquerque, i run on lots of hills, that mikuni has never stopped delivering the juice. even on runs up hills that are more than three miles long at wide open throttle. i rate it 5 stars
but my stock roketa fuel shut off valve has never given me a bit of trouble.
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Post by piaggio150 on Jan 22, 2011 16:22:31 GMT -5
I am going to try those different strategies whenever I get a chance. I think that I am going to just pick a day and get a friend to help me diagnose the problem using what I have found out from y'all as a base.
Chrome, thanks for the in-depth description.
CE, not sure if it is Chinese... In name and company it is Italian. However, it wouldn't suprise me, especially this day in age, if the company was outsourcing to China.
Bluefront, I will try the loose cap trick as well.
-A
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Post by lshigham on Jan 22, 2011 17:55:00 GMT -5
I am going to try those different strategies whenever I get a chance. I think that I am going to just pick a day and get a friend to help me diagnose the problem using what I have found out from y'all as a base. Chrome, thanks for the in-depth description. CE, not sure if it is Chinese... In name and company it is Italian. However, it wouldn't suprise me, especially this day in age, if the company was outsourcing to China.
Bluefront, I will try the loose cap trick as well. -A Some of the cheap Piaggio's (Zip's mostly) are now being made in China. Yours, and the more expensive scoots are still Italian built. |
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Post by lshigham on Jan 22, 2011 17:57:03 GMT -5
If you can't hear any pinging don't worry about the fuel grade. If it's too low you would know without having to go WOT for a long time. Rocky, there is no such thing as predetonation, you are confusing pre-ignition with detonation. If it was pre-ignition the scoot would probably be dead by now. Detonation makes a metallic 'ping' sound. I still think it's electrical, the ignition coil or CDI. I don't think the Fly comes with a combined unit, so start with the coil. There is a possibility the valves are out of spec, so are tightening up and causing compression loss when the scoot gets hot. See: www.motorcycleanchor.com/motorcycle/how_to/mc_octane.htmlPre-ignition and detonation are completely different things, with different causes. To amalgamate the two words will only cause confusion. |
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Post by rockynv on Jan 23, 2011 6:01:27 GMT -5
Pre-ignition and detonation are completely different things, with different causes. To amalgamate the two words will only cause confusion. Trade jounals are now using the terms predetonation and detonation interchangably as seen in the article on octain from MotorcycleAnchor. Pre-detonation or detonation can and does lead to pre-igntion. You can run for thousands of miles with mild detonation however once it heats up valves, spark plug electrodes, etc and progresses to pre-ignition you can have sudden catastrophic engine failure. The two are linked forming a chain of events with detonation many times being the cause of pre-ignition. So one could say the cause of the detonation that leads to pre-ignition is ultmately the root cause of the pre-ignition giving them both the same common cause. Long term detonation even if it is not very noticible and does not cause pre-ignition can give your piston a sand blasted appearance and cause it to wear. The resulting overheated spark plug can fail and leave you stranded by the side of the road until it cools off or until you replace it. If the valves overheat they will wear preamaturely and can crack from the stress. There is a very nice Wiki with a good amount of authoratative reference on the subject. We tend to forget about the link between the two as modern computerized engines have microphones/knock sensors on them that send feedback to the engine computer so it can prevent detonation from getting so bad the it causes pre-ignition. On our non-computerized scooters using too low a grade of gasoline can cause problems over the long run as mild detonation over time can take its toll on spark plugs, pistons and valves. This can be evidenced by shorter than expected spark plug life, oil getting dirty faster than it should and the need for more frequent valve adjustments. |
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Post by lshigham on Jan 23, 2011 6:34:43 GMT -5
Just checking the octane rating, the Piaggio's call for 95. That translates into 91 on your scale, it's got to be worth a try anyway.
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Post by tomcas on Jan 23, 2011 11:53:49 GMT -5
I got to think the dying is related to fuel delivery and not the governor. The speed governor will limit the speed, not cause the plug to load up with excess fuel and die. If it's fuel related then climb a very long hill at full throttle as fast as you can. It's unlikely you will achieve a high enough speed for the governor to kick in but before long the engine fuel demand would exceed delivery and the engine would start to sputter.
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