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Post by jasper811 on Jan 11, 2008 4:18:26 GMT -5
I wonder if any body can help this Kiwi Scooter new bee. I recently fitted an Jalon Baotian 82cc upgrade kit (kit with cam) to my Futong (dont laugh) Honda Zoomer look alike....well it was cheap and its a hobby not regular transport.....OK so here is the issue in 50cc state its was a traffic holder upper. In 82cc state its a rocket well I take on traffic and accelerate up hills...so all good. I fitted the kit myself following very detailed set of instructions from the net. But here is the issue its a difficult beast to start. When I do get it started it flys and I am very happy with the performance but it on starting hot or cold the starter motor sounds like it just cant cope with the compression. I have replaced the battery and that didnt work (threw away a good battery.....) If I can get it to crank with throttle closed it wont fire and if I crank open the throttle the starter stalls. If i kick start it 50% of the time it will run if I flood it its a no go until I clean the plug. So is this a starter motor problem? Could it be a valve clearance problem if anything not tight enough as they are noisy when hot I set them at .05 on exhaust and .04 on inlet. Could it be a timing issue I was very careful to set the the correct cam timing at TDC and holes on the cam wheel in line with cyl head but this is std setting could I need a different one for kit cam? I have also fitted the sports exhaust system. I love riding it and it gets heaps of looks as it is hmmm different but it now annoying Any suggestions please  |
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Post by daddyeby on Jan 11, 2008 7:59:16 GMT -5
When it breaks in the problem my solve itself. But in the mean time, I when clean every connection going to the starter and lube the bearings on the bendix.
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Post by jasper811 on Jan 11, 2008 14:06:15 GMT -5
Yes this may be the case!
I am going to have a good look at the starter tho as it was never a flash starter in 50cc form.
Sorry forgot to say Scooter is new less than 200km
Also using std carb and air cleaner system no re jetting yet as only a slight hesitation on and off the throttle on std system.
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Post by Enviromoto on Jan 11, 2008 16:51:40 GMT -5
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Post by jasper811 on Jan 12, 2008 1:27:10 GMT -5
Thanks for the info I will give this a try but somehow I still get the feeling the starter motor is weak as it just doesnt give me the impression its capable as its stops cranking if I open the throttle.
But I have checked and checked.
It seams to flood very easily from cold and once it has too much gas in the cyl it then wont crank on the starter...but surely a good starter will crank a flooded engine. I will check all connections to the starter and solenoid as I am almost convinced the starter draws too much and doesnt leave enough for spark.
Perhaps a sports coil and CDI may also help hmmm this is becoming a project and getting costly.
But I will re jet the carb and get a cone filter
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Post by daddyeby on Jan 12, 2008 10:46:12 GMT -5
If you are flooding that easy your carb is needing a adjustment of some sort. With out being there its hard to say which.
But again I would clean EVERY connection from the battery to the starter not forgetting the ground. (alot of people forget that the current has to have a return path) Even if the connection looks clean and sound pull it apart clean with a wire brush and if you can get your hands on it use conductive grease before putting it back together. As well as again making sure the benix is not binding. Another thing to check is to see if your battery is being charged fully try leaving it on a trickle charger if the problem goes away after being charged you will know you have a charging problem with the scoot.
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Post by jasper811 on Jan 12, 2008 15:02:17 GMT -5
Thanks good advice as the wiring on this Scooter is awful at the best, I have had to repair minor connections like lights indicators etc etc so most likely you are right somewhere there will be that bad one.
Today I will pull it apart I never did like the way it was cable tied anyway. Will take that op to check the jets in the carb. Is the Keihin a good reliable carb?
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Post by daddyeby on Jan 12, 2008 21:45:56 GMT -5
The auto choke is the weak point of the carb itself. It is a cv carb so it stays in adjustment very well. Before you go to changing jets I would adjust the idel and then do a plug read.
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Post by jasper811 on Jan 13, 2008 4:12:32 GMT -5
Checked all connections and didnt find a thing wrong. Got a test meter and check earth points no voltage drop anywhere. Points more to that starter motor so pulled the thing apart lubed all bearings cleaned contacts, brushes etc etc ......made it worse it bearly turns it once now before stalling out. so I figure that the thing is faulty. Even checked the clutch side unit and could see anything wrong there so I dont think its binding. Now where can I get a replacement unit. Might try to get a reliable Japanese one...I guess a Honda unit might fit...
Got the carb off too so that will get checked and jet sizes noted
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Post by swampsniper on Jan 13, 2008 4:45:27 GMT -5
Checked all connections and didnt find a thing wrong. Got a test meter and check earth points no voltage drop anywhere. Points more to that starter motor so pulled the thing apart lubed all bearings cleaned contacts, brushes etc etc ......made it worse it bearly turns it once now before stalling out. so I figure that the thing is faulty. Even checked the clutch side unit and could see anything wrong there so I dont think its binding. Now where can I get a replacement unit. Might try to get a reliable Japanese one...I guess a Honda unit might fit... Got the carb off too so that will get checked and jet sizes noted Check this out, ask for a Motofino starter. They have very good quality control. 20 Newton Rd, Newton, Auckland.1010 PO Box 8236, Symonds St, Auckland Email Enquiries: info@retroscooter.co.nz |
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Post by jasper811 on Jan 14, 2008 1:51:52 GMT -5
Thanks Mr Swampsniper I know the location have used Scootling also but hmmmm a lack of knowledge.
So even bypassed the solenoid tonight and it just does the same thing so unless its obscure its the starter motor.
Will let you know how I get on.
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Post by Enviromoto on Jan 14, 2008 18:40:08 GMT -5
I know this sounds obvious but check your oil level. If it is overfilled it would put a great strain on the starter.
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Post by swampsniper on Jan 14, 2008 21:27:05 GMT -5
I know this sounds obvious but check your oil level. If it is overfilled it would put a great strain on the starter. Very good thought! ;D |
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Post by jasper811 on Jan 15, 2008 1:20:33 GMT -5
well the plot thickens a little bit now. Tonight in frustration I took my jumper leads and hook up my great big 12volt car battery and you know what that little starter motor cranks over the 82cc engine like no tomorrow. So is the starter motor ok and it is now just not enough grunt in the std scooter battery to crank it. Any body ever had this happen where 82cc conversion requires upgraded battery output? Suppose its not out of the question but could it still mean the starter motor is faulty? Will check the oil level too tks. Isnt this weird am I the only one to suffer this with this conversion. Have asked the question of the supplier of the kit in Tawain Autotech ex Ebay and he says no std starter motor works ok. Checked Retro Scooters here in Akl but they wanted NZD160 for a very used starter and I could not be sure it would solve the prob chance is not good given tonights experiment. Have seen new ones on the net for 25-40 USD thats NZD80 plus freight. A real delema please keep the feedback coming as every time I mention Chinese Scooter everybody runs for cover and few willing to help.  |
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Post by swampsniper on Jan 15, 2008 2:12:59 GMT -5
Even a very small amount of corrosion or crud on the electrical connections can cause problems. You can also have a condition in the battery where an internal connection has partially failed. The battery will charge normally and power lights normally, but won't handle a heavy load.
See if you can find a Yuasa battery, they are the best I've ever found.
Retro's price is way out of line compared to what a new starter from Motofino would cost here.
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Post by jasper811 on Jan 15, 2008 2:18:35 GMT -5
Hey thanks for the feedback Battery is new and it is Yuasa have tested voltage and it drops away to 8-9 volts on cranking.....hmmm Will clean terminals and try again Bike is new so all connections clean and re checked again. Has to be the starter doesnt it?  |
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Post by swampsniper on Jan 15, 2008 2:31:05 GMT -5
Electrical problems can make you crazy ;D
I checked, Motofino USA wants $80.00 for a NEW starter. they are high on all parts, but the parts are usually above average quality. It doesn't need to be a Motofino starter, the inexpensive ones usually do fine.
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Post by daddyeby on Jan 15, 2008 21:49:39 GMT -5
As I said before Another thing to check is to see if your battery is being charged fully try leaving it on a trickle charger if the problem goes away after being charged you will know you have a charging problem with the scoot.
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Post by Enviromoto on Jan 15, 2008 22:07:45 GMT -5
One time I had a brand new battery that just wouldn't crank. Turns out the plates on the inside were separating. A new battery fixed that problem. Also it could be your starter solenoid.
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Post by jasper811 on Jan 16, 2008 3:11:24 GMT -5
Hey guys thanks for all the help. Yea battery was new and suppose it could be faulty but as it performed like the old one odds are that it was ok. Checked oil level thats ok, Checked soleniod and it works ok and supplies 12.4volts every time so the conclusion to this saga... Well it appears as though fitting a higher than 4 amp h battery solves it for now. Fitted a 12 amp h battery from a 1200 cc machine and it cranks (not a good as a car battery) and fires every time now. So is this the norm 82cc upgrade requires higher output battery to crank it over? I am not a gambling man so I will stick with a bigger battery and live with having to modify the carrier (no probs plenty of room) but I would almost put money on it that the little stater motor is faulty and drawing too much from the battery to allow a flood free start every time. Until its done a couple of thousand k's and freed up that is. Well I have a spare battery now so I may try it in a couple of months and who knows I may have more issues with that starter in that case I will post again..... OH BTW anybody know where I can get some 13" chrome or polished alloy wheels .....different (cooler than std) Trying to get mine to look like this part way there just need the wheels now that it goes properly. Oh and mirrors Cheers www3.kannet.ne.jp/~kgt/d%202005%20m%2003.jpg |
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Post by daddyeby on Jan 16, 2008 7:20:25 GMT -5
I have a 82cc kit before it was broke in the starter was a little draggy but after the frist few miles it had no problems. Even so I had a miss at higher rpm's that turn out to be a poor ground (the stock ground was vary light gage wire) to engine from the frame and it did seem to crank a little better.
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Post by jasper811 on Jan 17, 2008 2:42:55 GMT -5
Checking again as this morning it cranked over on the new larger battery but flooded and would not fire so I suspect the carb is the fault over fueling on cold or leaking raw gas into engine due to float level or something like that. So the issues continue and may be the hard crank is because its over fueling and full of raw gas. So just when you thought it was over it starts again this is one frustrating simple little thing.
My earth goes direct from the battery to the starter and is earthed there, we have a separate earth for the rest of the electrics which is to the chassis.
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Post by daddyeby on Jan 17, 2008 7:14:20 GMT -5
You might try readjusting the idel it maybe just a tad rich and then when you add the enrinchener it floods. But I expect that itssome thing other than that but its the simplest to try.
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Post by jasper811 on Jan 18, 2008 3:36:25 GMT -5
OH BTW anybody know where I can get some 13" chrome or polished alloy wheels .....different (cooler than std)
Trying to get mine to look like this part way there just need the wheels now that it goes properly. Oh and mirrors
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Post by rerun2 on Jan 18, 2008 15:41:37 GMT -5
jasper, Mirrors, here is a place that carries a large variety of mirrors. www.heeters.com/mirrors.shtmlI replaced the stock mirrors with the round, chrome, 8mm - 10" stem ones, think they are the 5th down the page... These are highly functional, certainly not for show, but they work great and are of an excellent quality. Don't limit your search for only mirrors that have the 8mm mounting screws, check out all the motorcycle styles too. They have 10mm mountings, but that is just fine and dandy too, you have a ton of choices, and can easily use any of these designs with an adapter. Below is a place that carries various adapters, in your case you would want the 8mm to 10mm conversion if you wanted to utilize the motorcycle styled mirrors. The site below is in the US, there is also a U.K. site that carries these too. U.S. site www.flyncycle.com/acatalog/MIRROR_MOUNTING.htmlU.K. site www.4-motorcycles.co.uk/acatalog/Blind_Spot_Mirrors.htmlAll three of these outfits seem to have a lot of 'stuff' available for your scooter! Good hunting, and post some pix when you get that beast together! www.flyncycle.com/acatalog/MIRROR_MOUNTING.html |
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Post by jasper811 on Jan 18, 2008 16:33:57 GMT -5
Thanks for all the help guys.
I think I may have found the problem or at least one of them. I am sure the float level in the carb is too high and thats not helping. What appears to happen is a general lack of spark when cranking esp when cold. Everybody has suggested electrical and although it looked like battery it might have been a bit of both. Discovered my battery charger has been calling the battery charged but the readings were only 12.4 v discovered that leaving it overnight brings it to 13.4-13.8 now cranking is no issue even with small battery.....Go figure that!
But cold starts still an issue on electric start but hey presto one kick start and its away. Hmm ok so pulled apart the wiring loom ok this is a cheap China copy of a Honda Zoomer or similar and it shows. Discovered the fused power feed from the battery to all other electrics is a single very small wire and then in the loom it was cut and split into three, ignition switch, voltage regulator and CDI unit. Hmm no I am not too tech but my sources and my own head says this could lead to a voltage drop at crank on starter. To confirm I find the small feed wire gets warm....ok so I am going to re wire this and take either three fused feeds from the battery or change the wire grade to the fuse and take three feeds from it. Any thoughts team on what gauge to use or should I go direct to the battery and feed/fuse all three separately???
This cant be helping and it might just solve it altogether.
Will let you know.
Still having fun.......just
:-)
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Post by rerun2 on Jan 18, 2008 18:31:37 GMT -5
Just an FYI, the scooter yours is a knock off of is known as the Honda Ruckus here in the US.
Good deal on the re-wire! As you note, ChiCom scooters are manufactured as cheaply as possible in most cases, and the things they do to save fraction of a wan often are comical in their stupidity. Unfortunately for us, the customer, their insane ideas create issues that WE have to deal with! I don't think doing the new wiring is going to solve the starting issue, I think that is due to a lousey cheapo starter motor. However, doing the new wires and fuses is a good idea regarless of the cold start issue.
Just a word on your fuel bowl, or just too much fuel... My scooter, a 50cc with the 82cc kit installed, came to me with the idle set pretty low. The enricher keeps the engine running until it heats up and stops feeding the wee bit more fuel. Then the scoot goes out. This is no big deal, I crank it back up, and within 10 seconds, it will idle on its own again.
This situation increased significantly when we started getting colder weather. I have also noticed that my scooter will become flooded with almost NO ENCOURAGEMENT when I first crank it up in the cold. I make the comment because I am a bit awed by the extent the cold air affects the little engine. It LOVES the cold air, and when warmed up to good operating temp. she has better 'everything' performance wise. I have checked my spark plug and it looks beautiful, fuel and air are near as perfect as I can hope for. My scooter also will crank very slowly when the temp is at 25F or below, and will not turn the starter fast enough to kick it into life. As you have said, the kick starter, as lousy as it is, gives enough 'umph' to crank her right up. I have just learned to accept it as she is, everything is great once she is warm, and dealing with the cold start issue is not a problem now that I know I will not be stranded due to the slow starter motor. Bottom line to all this is that I am not willing to screw up the perfect running little engine just to get it to idle a wee bit higher when she is ice cold. I share all this as it seems you have a lot of the same symptoms I have, only more exaggerated... don't know if any of this will help sort matters, but I felt it couldn't hurt to share it. Yeah, it get COLD down there too!!
I just don't think the starters on these things are up to dealing with cold temps, and I don't think a more powerful battery is the answer, if anything a new and more capable starter motor would probably do the trick, to me it is not worth the cost, or even the effort of thinking about it, I'll live with it as is until the thing goes out on its own! I considered switching to a hotter spark plug too, but again, why mess up everything to solve something that is a very very minor matter?
Heck, I rode a lot of years BEFORE there was anything called an electric starter, had to kick 'em all to life, got interesting at times too! ;D
Good Luck in getting her like you want her, sorry but I don't know of any source for custom 13" wheels!
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Post by jasper811 on Jan 18, 2008 23:26:14 GMT -5
Thanks for the support
Yes all this just got worse with the hot weather.
Yes I agree the re wire poss wont help sort it but in mind it will.
So its def over fueling some how as when it refuses to start and I rip of the carb the inlet is wet as if its been pooring in there.
So electrics sorted now it carb time
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Post by jasper811 on Jan 20, 2008 4:08:39 GMT -5
Hey Guys
Now its testing time
Re wired some parts just cause I couldnt stand the shabby job.
Stripped carb and checked all spec lowered float level a little, tried to re jet but jet supplied not right.....Scooter shop...hmmm. Fitted cone filter!
Re assembled and we are away, std battery not happy but copes, kick start ok when cold, electric ok when hot.
Lets try a few more fault free days and I can call it prob solved.
Cause: carb bad spec
Fix: Adjust float level raise idle speed and correct setting on mixtures and only kick start when cold.
Dont flood otherwise endless cranking only makes it worse.
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Post by rerun2 on Jan 20, 2008 18:08:01 GMT -5
Good deal there Jasper! I think that engine will loosen up a bit with some milage on it, the electric start will probaly kick it over then!
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