fginlf
New Puppy Dawg
Posts: 3
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Post by fginlf on Sept 4, 2010 21:31:58 GMT -5
I'm going to by my first scoot ;D After all the research I did on line, I now know many of the scoots I "looked at" on line are not currently sold in California due to very tight carb emission regulations. I had pretty much made up my mind on a Genuine Buddy 125, but after looking at them today, sitting on one, I thought I should really do my due diligence and look at a few more brands. I went down to Laguna Beach and saw the Lance Cali Classic, which I understand is now made by SYM in Taiwan. It was LOVE at first sight AND I can plant both feet firmly on the ground on this scoot as well~ Neither of the dealers would let me ride their scoots... There's a big dif in the appearance and style of these scoots, and I expect they handle very differently as well. I plan on riding the scooter to work (in good weather) 12 miles round trip when my aging Camaro is in the shop and for short trips to the market, and for fun of course. I'm hoping there is someone out there who has ridden both and can give me a little guidance - no, a LOT of guidance. Sorry this is so long... Thanks for your help!!! My first post - hope I did it right...
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Post by ootscoot on Sept 4, 2010 22:09:33 GMT -5
Welcome to scootDawg! The Buddy and the Cali are both very good bikes - having torn apart the engines of both (the Buddy for repairs, the Cali for curiosity), I would say their build quality and metal castings are equal. The Buddy incorporates an oil filter, which adds to engine life span, the Cali has SYM's trademark ceramic lined cylinder, also adding to engine life. Both 125cc's have similar power and acceleration. The ride feel is different - the Cali is lower and longer with a 12" front wheel - nice stable feel, the Buddy is shorter and taller - more maneuverable. Both have excellent front shocks and rear swing arm suspension. Another bike to look at is the SYM Fiddle ll 125cc - now available in CA. - same drive system as the Cali, but with the classic Vespa styling and a new reduced price (around the same as the Cali) - $2000.+/- For fun and style, I like my Cali - a great beach cruiser, for zipping through downtown traffic, the Buddy is handy...
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fginlf
New Puppy Dawg
Posts: 3
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Post by fginlf on Sept 5, 2010 0:11:37 GMT -5
Thanks for the welcome & the info!
Good to know there are positive comments on the Cali Classic. Older internet posts on the "Lance" were not favorable.
I tried the Fiddle II at the shop in Laguna, but only toes reached the ground. Seems the seat is a bit higher than the Buddy and the Cali Classic. Perhaps not too important to a seasoned rider, but as a newbie to scooting, I didn't feel very comfortable with that.
The shop in Laguna has daily/hourly rentals, so can try something similar to the Cali (Chinese version). Sure wish I could find a buddy to ride before I make a decision.
Thanks again for your input!!
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Post by mymomwantsatrike on Sept 5, 2010 5:32:23 GMT -5
if you have an M1 license NoHo scooters in North Hollywood will let you test ride a Buddy all you want. they also have rentals for longer rides. but taking out a scoot for a good test run is no problem. they have them sitting outside to hop on and go. i haven't any experience with the Lance Cali Classic, but from what i have read and heard, ootscoot is right on target with his impressions. i have ridden Buddy's, and they are definitely good performers and quick off the line. very flickable, they are sort of performance oriented on their little 10in wheels, and surprisingly stable at speed for having such small wheels and tires. the Lance Cali Classic is for all intents and purposes a clone of the Sym Fiddle II with different handlebars. its a decent bike, but lagged behind the Buddy and others in a recent Scoot! magazine comparo of 125cc scooters. much discussion was given about the Lance Cali Classic, apparently also called the Lance Vienna in other markets, in this thread at the Modern Buddy forums www.modernbuddy.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=147097
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Post by ootscoot on Sept 5, 2010 12:01:03 GMT -5
The SYM Fiddle ll , the Cali Classic and the Lance Vienna are all built by SYM with identical drive train. The Vienna and Fiddle ll are the same bike. The Cali has a different body, longer and lower wheel base w/ the 12" front wheel. I like the style and build and feel of the Buddy for a zippy little scoot. The Cali has more of the casual cruiser feel. It really does come down to personal taste. From my experience the quality, durability, reliability, and $ factors are equal. Lance no longer imports the Znen bikes that gave it such a poor reputation - riding the Lance Vintage is not a true comparison to the SYM built Cali. Good luck to you! and yea, test them first...
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Post by mymomwantsatrike on Sept 5, 2010 12:54:02 GMT -5
so far as i understand, "built by SYM" is misleading but they are using SYM stuff to build the scoots, apparently sym-usa.com/news/?p=139/SYM didn't seem too happy about this as of that letter, but how they feel now given their recent woes with Carter Bros, who knows?
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Post by mymomwantsatrike on Sept 5, 2010 13:04:19 GMT -5
oh found this letter, in defense of Lance. what a quagmire Dear Dealers and Consumers, We are sorry to announce that our anticipated Vienna 50 / 125 will not be available. Carter has put our manufacture in a difficult position. In the interest of all parties involved, we have decided not to continue with the Vienna model at this time.
As you may or may not know, our Vienna model is similar to Carter/SYM Fiddle II. Only difference we offer reasonable dealer cost and affordability to consumers by adding more value for less.
Carter CEO Jonathan Arn sent a memo last week falsely accusing Lance of illegally obtaining Vienna model through trading company. In response, the real truth is we were solicited by Carter’s manufacture to help distribute Vienna in the US. However, this has created tension and animosity between all parties so we decided to withdraw from importing Vienna at this time. We sincerely apologize to our dealers and consumers for any inconvenience.
Besides issuing false statements about Lance and overcharging dealers and consumers, we do not know Carter or have any negative things to say as they are probably a fine company. We do not engage in false accusations or slander a competitor who’s trying to help add more value for dealer and consumers as we navigate through challenging times.
Lance is always on the forefront in offering the best value, best after sales support and competitive pricing so you have the edge to grow your business. Our goal is to make a positive impact for our dealers and add value to the products we sell by offering more for less. Competition is parts of what makes our country great and “when we compete…you win.”
We ask for your continued support so Lance can continue to offer innovative products, great after sales support, competitive and reasonable pricing so in turn you continue to be successful and profitable at the same time offer your customers significant savings and exceptional value.
We thank and appreciate your ongoing support.
Lance Powersports Inc.
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Post by jayhawk on Sept 5, 2010 16:36:22 GMT -5
Those are old letters that do not apply to the Lance Cali Classic. Ootscoot should chime in, but my understanding is the cali classic is built by SYM for Lance.
Eric
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Post by mymomwantsatrike on Sept 5, 2010 19:56:00 GMT -5
that would seem sort of strange to me, given the small history between the two, with Lance accusing SYM / Carter Bros of overcharging and nothing less then slander.
its my understanding the Cali Classic is produced in a 3rd party factory in China that also produces a SYM model, but SYM is not involved in the scooters whatsoever. the Cali Classic is using some SYM mechanicals, but so far as i have read nowhere on the bike is it identified as a SYM. a few Genuine scooters (the Buddy, for instance) is made by PGO, Taiwan. and when you buy one PGO is stamped all over it, not Genuine or the factory where it was produced. even the owners manual clearly states its a PGO scooter. but what factory it comes from, I don't know
i am not bad mouthing the Cali Classic. i was considering one myself, recently. but i feel a Lance is Lance and SYM is SYM. i have read of no partnership or distribution agreement. or quality control sharing at the factory. given SYM's recent troubles in the US, i would think any sales, even on the supply side of things (parts, components, etc) would be welcome by them, if reluctantly. but why they would feed the competition like this by building an entire scooter for them which undercuts SYM's pricing in the marketplace on similar scooters of there own, well, that doesn't make much sense to me.
i like the Cali Classic. i'd ride and own one. but to call it a SYM, again, i think that is misleading. even if SYM has agreed or doesn't object to the association. for whatever reason that would be?
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Post by kz1000st on Sept 5, 2010 22:00:38 GMT -5
Nope, check again. I saw a Youtube video where the Lance guys were showing SYM boxes for the Cali Classic parts. Not only that but it's built in the same plant they build the Fiddle II and maybe even the Yamaha Zuma 125 for---Yamaha. You do know that the Zuma has a ceramic cylinder liner too. Why even Kymco has a plant in China building such notables as the Super 8.
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Post by jayhawk on Sept 5, 2010 23:04:01 GMT -5
SYM has a history of building for other companies: Honda, Carter Brothers (i.e. - the Fiddle), Bug in Australia...and I think there is one other I'm thinking of.
It's really rather common in the scooter industry: Adly/Lambretta, Genuine/PGO, LML/Vespa/Genuine, Adly/Bug, etc.
Eric
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Post by mymomwantsatrike on Sept 5, 2010 23:22:38 GMT -5
Nope, check again. I saw a Youtube video where the Lance guys were showing SYM boxes for the Cali Classic parts. Not only that but it's built in the same plant they build the Fiddle II and maybe even the Yamaha Zuma 125 for---Yamaha. You do know that the Zuma has a ceramic cylinder liner too. Why even Kymco has a plant in China building such notables as the Super 8. i have no problem with scoots made in china. by whomever wants to make them there. the very keyboard i am typing on was made in china. i love cheap chinese labor and yes jayhawk, i do know about the kymco's, pgo's, yamaha's, etc, produced in china. i just don't think their is a partnership / agreement between SYM itself and Lance of any kind, and other then some mechanicals being used, i don't think SYM benefits financially from the sales of Lance scooters whatsoever. if so, i'd like to read all about it. Lance does not sell SYM scooters. and if so, i'd like to know how this came to be and what SYM Taiwan has to do with it? the reason they build for Carter Bros is that was their distributor in the US. it was a partnership. but it seems that has soured as of right now. i'm just saying if Lance decided to start getting parts and what not from another factory, or have their scooter built by another factory in china without notice, they would most likely be free to do so. are their contracts signed between SYM and Lance? is SYM identified by name on the "official" Lance website? doesn't seem to be, and Lance has not said "we distribute SYM scooters." plenty of dealers are saying that. but it's up to the buyer to decide what it is, and what it's not, i suppose. and what it will be in the future Lance has one scoot being sold in the U.S. as of right now. it will be interesting to see where they go from here. i had one dealer tell me flat out he doesn't trust Lance atm, and they have been calling him to become a dealer of the Cali Classic. but it's a "no go." at least for now. he does sell SYM, however.
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fginlf
New Puppy Dawg
Posts: 3
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Post by fginlf on Sept 6, 2010 0:49:09 GMT -5
Thanks gents for the info and your input!!
True, there was nothing on the Cali Classic that I saw that said SYM. Lancemotorsports.com says the scooter is manufactured in Taiwan.. The Fidle II clearly had SYM embossed the the saddle - didn't look in all the nooks and crannys of either scooter for more SYM stampings. Unfortunately, couldn't get both feet on the ground on the Fiddle - seat height must be a bit higher than the Cali.
The dealer in Laguna assured me, despite the issues with Clark Brothers, they are getting parts no problem from Canada. Apparently there is also a warehouse in Chino, CA which services California's "special" needs.
I'm a cruiser, not a ninja, which makes me lean toward the Cali Classic. But there's one REALLY big thing the Buddy offers that Lance, or any other scooter I've checked on line or other wise does not offer; a two year parts and labor (unlimited mileage) warranty, plus two year road side assistance. The Lance offers a 1 year (kinda vague) parts and labor warranty. Being a single gal, on my own, the Buddy warranty/roadside assistance appeals to my sensuality.
At this point, I'm feeling pretty confident the Lance Cali is a decent scooter (best price from local dealer ($1,800) $400 less than the Buddy), and I do love the look of it and felt more comfortable on it. On the other hand, the Genuine Buddy is proven, has a good reputation, plus the warranty is killer.
All that being said, guess I have to decide...
Thanks again for your help and any other info you might like to provide!!
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Post by mymomwantsatrike on Sept 6, 2010 2:36:05 GMT -5
well whatever you choose, i am sure it will be a good and reliable ride for you. another thing going in the Buddy's favor, however, is a GREAT community of riders and enthusiast. the site is slow or may be down right now for Sunday maintenance, but Modern Buddy is a great community of friendly Genuine scooter riders from all over the country, and the Admin runs it from right here in SoCal. here is the general link www.modernbuddy.com/forum/index.html?sid=90ebd6ab90b246eaa58a82d88e2c9894check out the "Photo Gallery" to see what people have done to their Buddy's, and just how much fun they can be to own also the LA Scooter Meet Up group was also founded by the same person who runs the forums, and is a great place to meet riders from all over SoCal who ride, and get together and ride. you may not get up to Los Angeles to take part in a group ride, but it has members from all around. so its a good group to join to meet even just a few people to ride with in just about any area. and they do get down to OC sometimes, apparently www.meetup.com/LAScooterGroup/EDIT: but forget that, look what i found! www.meetup.com/Beach-Cities-Scooter-Club/have fun!
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Post by ootscoot on Sept 6, 2010 9:01:36 GMT -5
The Lance Cali Classic is built by SanYang industries. (SYM). The bike labels read "manufactured by SanYang Industries". The keys, the engine components, the body panels are all labeled SYM. The VIN numbers all begin with RFGB (indicating Taiwan origin and SYM manufacture). The drive train is actually produced in SYM's Taiwan facility, the rest of the bike is assembled in their Chinese plant along with Kymco's Agility, Yamaha Zuma, Tomos, and Fiddle ll. The key components of quality found in both the PGO products and SYM;s is the metal hardness and quality of castings, and a well run assembly with quality control at all stages. I spoke with Eddie Lu recently - he's head of SYM Taiwan's overseas sales. He told me he is very pleased with Lance's sales of the Cali and is looking forward to the new SYM/Lance collaborations coming soon. And yes, SYM definitely builds and benefits from the Cali Classic.
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Post by jayhawk on Sept 6, 2010 10:29:33 GMT -5
Thanks ootscoot...and the Yamaha/Sym and Tomos/Sym connections were two I knew of but forgot to list.
Good to know the Lance's are SYM build...inspires confidence.
Eric
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Post by nickiemcnichols on Sept 6, 2010 10:56:56 GMT -5
I saw a Lance Cali Classic a few weeks ago. But I was too busy looking at the Hammerhead LaVita next to it to notice much of the Cali. Personally, the Buddy seems more practical, if one has the money, it's a proven scooter... changes very little from model year to year...
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Post by mymomwantsatrike on Sept 6, 2010 16:42:49 GMT -5
wow that is incredible news, ootscoot
might this be the demise of the truly low quality, low cost chinese scooter in America? i mean the Cali Classic is $2000 which is still a premium above a Znen, but with a major distributor like Lance seemingly saying "enough is enough" for whatever reason, how many people other then the "wrencher" types found on these forums will really be interested in buying something for maybe $500 less (the BMS Heritage, for instance) when for just $500 more (or less on discount) a Lance Cali Classic is within easy reach?
it would seem a no brainier
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Post by ootscoot on Sept 7, 2010 9:40:48 GMT -5
the power sports industry is in a tough position right now. Many dealers that are selling products that are "sports" related - ATVs, jetski's, off road bikes, quads...and upper end bling products - Harley's, etc.. are having a dificult time in todays market. I am advertising to, and selling to the young couple needing a second vehicle, the daily downtown commuter, the college student needing to save $$ on parking and gas...basically people like me who have a need for Affordable, alternative transportation. And Reliable as well. The Taiwan built/Chinese assembled scoots fit that need. Prices on these bikes have come down to near GY6 levels. Many dealers are selling off stock to pay back their flooring costs...winter is coming.
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Post by kz1000st on Sept 7, 2010 9:43:48 GMT -5
might this be the demise of the truly low quality, low cost chinese scooter in America?As long as people like me live in the sticks and not in such illustrious places as Southern California low cost scooters like this: www.gsmotorworks.com/detail.cfm?id=837and scooters from www.greenearthscooters.com and www.killermotorsports.com will be selling for a long time. The nearest CF Moto, Genuine or anything else non-Japanese is about a hundred miles from here. OK there are two Kymco dealers now, but one only sells ATVs and the other stocks nothing and you have to order a scooter if you want one-he's a Honda dealer.
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Post by kz1000st on Sept 7, 2010 10:39:23 GMT -5
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Post by hardd1 on Sept 7, 2010 11:13:38 GMT -5
she has great prices on the CF Moto stuff...especially the $999 deal
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Post by SylvreKat on Oct 5, 2010 18:41:07 GMT -5
You know, BOTH dealers ABSOLUTELY!!!! should let you test-drive their scooters.
If nothing else, insist that they allow you to take a few laps around the parking lot. Because like you said, how will you know the differences in their handling if you don't?
Stupidest thing I've read yet, no test-drives. The dealers probably thought "Oh, just a girl, what would she know anyways?" or some other stupid nonsense running through that unused organ inside their skulls. My dealer insisted on test-drives, just so the buyer knew for certain this was indeed the one they wanted.
>'Kat
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Post by conor78 on Oct 29, 2010 8:05:49 GMT -5
fginlf,
Not sure about the Lance, but I just bought a used Buddy and I love it. It's replacing my Chinese 150cc because I'm sick of working on it. The Buddy seems to be peppier and much more solidly built. That said, the seat is a bit higher so if you're not very tall it probably isn't the scoot for you. It's also very light so it's more susceptible to wind gusts. The light weight helps its fuel efficiency though. Overall, I'm VERY pleased with the Buddy.
Another thing you may want to consider is that the Buddy is one of those scoots with an almost cultish owners' community. Therefore there are tons of parts and accessories available online.
Good luck, Conor
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