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Post by sweden on Sept 14, 2010 6:41:38 GMT -5
Well, a bit of an update on my scoot.
I am still experiencing some bogging and messing with my AF in little turns, it is nowhere near as bad as it used to be, I can't remember if I have any more notches on my needle in the direction I moved last time to get rid of the bogging initially, is that worth trying if I have?
On another point, I decided to take the speedo apart and get rid of the condensation in the glass and it came back almost straight away, anyone else had this problem? I am going to take it off again and get the hair dryer on it this time, but I am wondering how it got wet in there to start with as it seems pretty well sealed, no rubber on the seal though, maybe the last owner took that off too for his spares pile?
I did a good PDI on the scoot and replaced about 8 missing screws and the same amount of nuts and bolts and all my rattles have gone now, gave it a good clean and it looks as good as new now and almost runs that way too. I also charged my battery and am enjoying my electric start too. Just want to get the engine running 100% and enjoy the ride now.
Did you get your problem fixed relaxinrob and the other guy TheJam who PM'd me, how did you get on? Our problems were very similar and I am wondering if you guys found anything different from my fix....sorta fix!!!
Thanks again to everyone for sticking with me on this epic!!!
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Post by relaxinrob on Sept 14, 2010 6:55:12 GMT -5
I did get rid of the bogging by raising the needle, but it.never.had the top speed that I wanted, so I sold it. Best I could get out of it was 32 mph.
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Post by sweden on Sept 14, 2010 8:58:50 GMT -5
I must say these 4 strokes are pretty damn slow, I have only ever had 2 strokes before and have always been able to mod them and get over 50mph without too much trouble and one I even got up to 70mph with a replacement single ring piston and head, the kit was a CDC malossi, that was on a Yamaha DT50MX so not technically a scooter, the fastest scoot I had was a Peugeot Speedfight, I regret selling that one before I relocated here to Sweden.
I only really need mine for getting to work and around the city so speed isn't really a major concern, although uphills I would like a bit more.
Glad you got your problem fixed. Have you purchased a new scoot Rob?
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Post by relaxinrob on Sept 14, 2010 12:23:36 GMT -5
I have a 150 also, so I am riding that one....tons of power and speed.
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Post by als01seville on Sept 14, 2010 23:08:07 GMT -5
Sweden, Do the old Trick on it to find if its running Lean or Rich at WOT:
But anyway find out which condition it is Rich or Lean. 1.when it bogs back off the Throttle a little and hold it there. a. If it Speeds up and or Settles down your Lean. b. If it Bogs and then Speeds up or Settles down it is Rich.
Last solution is if your carb is a SLide Carb which has the Throttle going into the TOp of the Carb which actually pulls the Slide up and Down replace it with a CV Carb. Alleyoop
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Post by sweden on Sept 15, 2010 3:19:45 GMT -5
I reckon I am still running lean but as before don't seem to be getting anywhere with the AF adjustment again, it was fine when I had it really warm but it doesnt get that warm on my daily drives.
I have just spent the equivalent of 100 bucks on the replacement carb, so didn't really want to buy a new one, could I up jet?
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Post by onewheeldrive on Sept 15, 2010 4:37:09 GMT -5
The picture you posted clearly shows what appears to be a CV carb: www.asiamotor.eu/shop/images/160000-TB9-000.jpgThis thing bogs at full speed right? I'm not sure what a carbs A/F mixture screw adjustment at quarter turns or half turns is going to do at high speed. I ride in 20 degree weather in the winter---it only bogs if I start it up and try and take off without warming it up for a few minutes----then once warm it can reach full speed in colder weather, unless it dies first. lol. Kinda touchy when super cold. My CV carb has an accelerator pump, but when the engine is somewhat warm it runs great. If the average persons carb has only a half turn or so of a sweet spot(as in bogging, not idling), then somethings wrong with the carbs(defective/dirty) or elsewhere(even electrical). I can turn my carb A/F screw 5 turns out, and it won't bog. I could screw it almost all the way in and it won't bog----it will effect the idle more than anything on my scoot. I can reach full speed regardless of the position of the A/F mixture screw on my carb---- 90 degrees F, or 15 degrees F. Sorry, I just think the A/F screw is a little overrated, and effects idle and maybe lower speeds more than anything----although I could see it being a little more touchy with mods.
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Post by sweden on Sept 15, 2010 4:52:15 GMT -5
I was under the impression that a CV carb had the throttle cable connected to the top and this raised a slide to allow fuel delivery which mine doesn't? ? I have a brand new carb and know it isn't dirty, it hasn't had the chance to get dirty...yet! I raised the needle in the carb and adjusted the AF after getting the bike really warm and it was running sweet, the next day, when I left for work it had nothing when cold, it died down all over the place and then when it was warmer, it was running slightly better but still bogging, I guess I need to take a long ride and see if it clears, but seeing as my work journey is about 10 minutes, it means I am bogging on my routine drives which is irritating. I have to admit I am now contemplating putting it into the shop to get it tuned up right, I am rather bitter about this as it should be an easy fix and I feel I have spent too much in time and money on the scoot, it seems to be running lean, but the fact I had it running well when it was real warm is confusing the issue a bit for me. Thanks for your reply.
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Post by onewheeldrive on Sept 15, 2010 16:09:50 GMT -5
What do you mean "air intake pipe" that was missing?
Also, you stated the original owner or whoever, "cut off and welded the bit on the exhaust that leads to the air box top"?
I'm curious, but not sure exactly sure what that means.
Does Sweden(the country) have all that emissions control stuff on scooters?
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Post by lshigham on Sept 15, 2010 16:38:26 GMT -5
I was under the impression that a CV carb had the throttle cable connected to the top and this raised a slide to allow fuel delivery which mine doesn't? ? That's a slide carb, not a CV.
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Post by sweden on Sept 16, 2010 0:35:59 GMT -5
What do you mean "air intake pipe" that was missing? Also, you stated the original owner or whoever, "cut off and welded the bit on the exhaust that leads to the air box top"? I'm curious, but not sure exactly sure what that means. Does Sweden(the country) have all that emissions control stuff on scooters? The air intake pipe that was missing when I brought the scoot was on the bottom of the engine block to the bottom left of the air filter. There is a nipple on the top of the air box and on my neighbours scoot, this has a rubber hose leading to his exhaust and some kind of vacumn type set up. like a petcock, I presume this is to aid with cold starting although I guess the guy cut it off as some sort of derestriction process? It is strange but there doesn't seem to be any control on scoot emissions here in Sweden, I come from the UK and it was really tight there and this place boasts of being an environmental leader but from what I have seen they are actually a bit behind!!!! You can have a scoot here that isn't registered and ride it on cycle lanes (not the road without registration) and some of them things are pumping out copious amounts of smoke and they are never tested!
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Post by onewheeldrive on Sept 16, 2010 1:27:14 GMT -5
The air intake pipe that was missing when I brought the scoot was on the bottom of the engine block to the bottom left of the air filter. There is a nipple on the top of the air box and on my neighbours scoot, this has a rubber hose leading to his exhaust and some kind of vacumn type set up. like a petcock, I presume this is to aid with cold starting although I guess the guy cut it off as some sort of derestriction process? It is strange but there doesn't seem to be any control on scoot emissions here in Sweden, I come from the UK and it was really tight there and this place boasts of being an environmental leader but from what I have seen they are actually a bit behind!!!! You can have a scoot here that isn't registered and ride it on cycle lanes (not the road without registration) and some of them things are pumping out copious amounts of smoke and they are never tested! Sounds like some sort of emission control to me (the petcock looking thing). I wonder if you have that charcoal canister(s): www.chinesescooterreference.com/manual_images/vapor_canister.jpgIf you do have that, then.... You said the guy cut it off? I wonder if you have a vacuum leak somewhere where those hoses go, or maybe something needs plugged? EDIT: Since were on different sides of the world and I may be sleeping in a few, and if it turns out to be the canister(s), then scroll down about halfway into this link, and there's a PDF that shows some details about it: www.chinesescooterreference.com/manuals_charts.htm
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Post by sweden on Sept 16, 2010 5:13:27 GMT -5
No, I don't have one of those cannisters on my scoot. You can sort of see the bit missing off my exhaust in this picture, see the tube that goes into the body towards the front of the exhaust, that is what is missing on mine, it has been cut off and welded up, the tube went to the top of the airbox and I have blocked the hole on top of the air box.
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Post by sweden on Sept 20, 2010 3:44:08 GMT -5
OK, I have the bike running great when it is warm, like really warm now, just a tiny bit of bogging if I don't close the throttle off slightly but I can live with that, it seems as near as I am going to get, but when it is cold, it is a pig, my first part of my work route is a hill and the scoot hates it and wants to die, does anyone know how I can improve that cold performance, I can let it warm up a bit but it takes like 5 minutes of riding to get it warm.....god knows what that choke does...which is new by the way, it seems to be choking it to death when cold!!!! Any ideas?
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Post by onewheeldrive on Sept 20, 2010 4:30:37 GMT -5
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Post by sweden on Sept 20, 2010 5:16:14 GMT -5
Hi Onewheeldrive, If it is an emissions control I am not sure it would make any difference to the bogging. The scoot has always bogged since I have had it, I bought it thinking that it was a simple tuning fix and obviously with it not having an air filter in when I got it, I thought it would be a simple fix....not so. I am contemplating up jetting the carb now to see what difference that makes if any. My brain is hurting too! My scoot model is BT49 QT-12C
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Post by tortoise on Sept 20, 2010 10:45:20 GMT -5
General Information (NOT specific to the 139QMB carb) Installing an On-Off switch on the choke wires, or just unplugging the connector, would maintain the enriched fuel mixture . . until the choke was energized (extending the shut-off needle). Did you ohm test the ignition coil as previously suggested?
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Post by als01seville on Sept 20, 2010 13:44:39 GMT -5
Well, here is the thing, your carb has a PUMP, when you twist the throttle it pumps extra fuel in it. Now this happens whenever you let up on the throttle and then twist it. So when cold the Enricher is RETRACTED which is allowing more fuel and then you take off and you twist the throttle and EVEN more fuel goes in and floods the damn thing. If you could adjust your pump NOT to engage the pumper that may help when you twist the throttle. The other would be to put on a manual choke and that way when you cold start it you can close up the hole and not allow extra fuel to come in only from your Pump when you twist the throttle. I put on a manual on mine because I could smell gas when I started it cold. After you start the engine the Enricher gets voltage heating up the element and the Needle and Plunger start to extend cutting off the extra fuel coming in. The temp does not make a difference the DEFAULT on the enricher is to Retract when the engine is shut off because now no more voltage is going to the Enricher. As the Enricher itself cools off it starts to RETRACT again opening the hole to allow more fuel to come in Next time you start it up. Alleyoop
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Post by sweden on Oct 13, 2010 9:13:42 GMT -5
Hi ...again......
Well, I have gone through all the suggestions given here, and got nowhere, I have learnt alot about the scoot, so nothing was wasted. The only thing I haven't done is upjetted, I guess that can't cost too much so I think I am going to give that a go as my final attempt to cure the bogging. Could someone tell me what the standard jet size is and what I should change the jet to to try to eliminate the bogging, my needle is on the very bottom notch now, so the needle is as high as it can be in the carb.
Thanks guys.
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Post by oscar on Oct 13, 2010 9:23:51 GMT -5
Do you get bogging when you whack the throttle wide open? That is what I get. I have a couple vacuum leaks on the intake but I would not think that would affect at WOT ( wide open throttle). So i believe I need to upjet my carb as well.
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Post by oscar on Oct 13, 2010 9:26:20 GMT -5
I must say these 4 strokes are pretty damn slow, I have only ever had 2 strokes before and have always been able to mod them and get over 50mph without too much trouble and one I even got up to 70mph with a replacement single ring piston and head, the kit was a CDC malossi, that was on a Yamaha DT50MX so not technically a scooter, the fastest scoot I had was a Peugeot Speedfight, I regret selling that one before I relocated here to Sweden. I only really need mine for getting to work and around the city so speed isn't really a major concern, although uphills I would like a bit more. Glad you got your problem fixed. Have you purchased a new scoot Rob? I get 45 MPH out of my 49cc Chinoscoot & 50 MPH in cold weather. My scoot isn't even running right!
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Post by dadzilla on Oct 13, 2010 13:48:20 GMT -5
Any ideas will be most gratefully received and followed through. Thank you so much again folks Install a section of clear fuel line and see if you actually getting fuel delivery.
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Post by Beachy on Oct 13, 2010 14:07:24 GMT -5
Swede,
When does it bog? 1/4 throttle? 1/2 Throttle or Full throttle? Or all of the above?
I'm still not sure about the welded exhaust and plugged airbox you mentioned. Can you take a photo of both? I'm just kinda typing as I think, so bear with me. It just seems odd that you have to re-jet a new carb and you have a stock engine, exhaust and air filter. Seems like something is being overlooked...
Do you live close to sea level? If not what is the elevation?
Pull your spark plug and tell us what color it is. (Black is rich, white is lean and tan is right on).
As far as possibly having dirt in the carb, it is possible even with a new one. I just went through that myself. When gas sits for any length of time it turns into a syrup/glue consistency, and it finds it's way into the float bowl and clogs tiny passages. This may account for having this problem intermittently. A piece of dirt clogs a jet, works it's way out and the next day a new piece finds it's way. Just a thought...
I feel bad for you, I know you have been dealing with this for several months. When I'm dealing with air/fuel problems the first thing I look at is the color of the spark plug. When you get a chance pull it out and tell us how it looks.
Skol,
Mike
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Post by sweden on Oct 14, 2010 0:33:29 GMT -5
Hi,
Yes I get the bogging at W.O.T and seeing as I have had plenty of time to see what this bogging does, I have found that I can hold the throttle there and the engine starts to die and then it will pick back up again, I am not sure how long it will run for like that as being in a city I have to stop for something every few hundred meters. I think I am going to go through everything from the airbox to the carb and see if there are any splits in the pipe. I don't really know what the previous owner did to this scoot, so I am a bit lost as to what to look at in detail. My neighbour has a scoot with the same engine, I looked at his exhaust and the bit where mine has been cut and welded is basically just a petcock type thing that runs to the air filter to reduce emissions so I can't think that would be the problem. I am pretty close to the sea, not close enough for salt or crap to get in the scoot though. As for the carb, I brought it brand new and checked it all over before installing it and it was fine. I installed a new NGK spark plug a while back, I will pull that this evening and see what colour it is now, the old spark plug was a nice tan colour when I pulled it and even after messing with the AF mix, for a few weeks, it still looked nice....well, as nice as a spark plug can look!!! Winter is drawing in here now, it was down to 0o yesterday and I will be hanging up my helmet for the duration, it gets way to cold, icy and snowy here to risk riding a scoot in it, it is bad enough walking, so I would like to get this sorted knowing that when I pull it out next Spring, it will be a good one.
Thanks for sticking with me guys.
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Post by oscar on Oct 14, 2010 8:01:27 GMT -5
I think he was asking about your elevation as this will affect your jetting. Denser sea level air will require larger jets than normal to avoid going lean.
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Post by sweden on Oct 14, 2010 8:59:45 GMT -5
I am at sea level.
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Post by sweden on Oct 15, 2010 9:08:59 GMT -5
Do you guys think I should upjet then? if so what size from the standard carb jet should I go for?
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Post by oscar on Oct 15, 2010 9:30:28 GMT -5
I'm new to scootering myself so keep that in mind. On another thread it was recommended to go a couple sizes larger than your current jet & than a couple sizes larger again until you get to the point where your running better & seeing a darker color on your plug.
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Post by sweden on Oct 15, 2010 9:35:15 GMT -5
I will get a couple of jets this evening if I can and try it over the weekend and see what happens., Can't hurt to try it out.
Cheers.
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Post by oscar on Oct 15, 2010 9:37:25 GMT -5
More familiar w/ snowmobiles myself. W/ a snowmobile you prop up the rear, install new plugs, start the engine & immediately give the machine a full throttle pull & kill the engine as you do so. Then pull the plugs & see where the burn mark is. A burn mark that shows on the bend in the electrode indicates your main jet is spot on, mark above the bend is lean & below is rich. This is how we set up snowmobiles don't know if this would work w/ scoots.
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