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Post by yggdrasil on Sept 2, 2010 22:31:27 GMT -5
I thought the problem was that this would happen when you hit a bump? I had an interesting thing here. I installed my carb without plugging in the autochoke. It was giving me some wierd problems because of that but one symptom i had was when I would put it on its stand while it was running the jostling would kill the engine due to flooding or something . after I plugged in my enricher power it stopped doing this.
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Post by sweden on Sept 3, 2010 0:36:06 GMT -5
I changed the carb for a new one as there seemed to be bits missing in the old carb, like a float spring, so I thought, that a new carb would solve the bogging, it hasn't, it doesn't bog over bumps now.
Symptoms now are:
Hardly runs when just started, just bogs out, I have to twist and release continuously to get going. Runs better when warmer but bogs out sometimes around 3/4 Throttle and all the time at full throttle. I think I am going to move the pin in the diapraghm down a notch and try again with that. I just don't know where to go next? I checked the filler cap and that was fine, worth a look as is everything mentioned.
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Post by sweden on Sept 5, 2010 2:09:02 GMT -5
Anyone any other ideas with this bogging?
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Post by rgdroid on Sept 5, 2010 12:56:17 GMT -5
Still sounds like the carb, what kind of carb is the new one?
Has this been going on since you got the scooter?
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Post by als01seville on Sept 5, 2010 23:06:49 GMT -5
Sweden, Does your carb look like this: Alleyoop Right Side of Carb: Left Side of Carb: Sweden, do you have any mods to the bike, Uni Filter or Free Flow Exhaust. Check to see if your Air/Fuel mixture is out around 2 1/2 turns Counter Clockwise. The thing is you have to Try and Find out if it is Bogging because it is to Rich Or to Lean. Run it and when it Bogs Back Off The Throttle a Little and HOLD IT THERE: a. If it Speeds up or Settle Down you are running LEAN. b. If it Stumbles and or Bogs THEN Settles down you are running RICH. Once its determined which condition is causing the Bogging then it can be fixed. Alleyoop
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Post by sweden on Sept 6, 2010 4:56:55 GMT -5
That is basically my carb, mine has a black slider cover but apart from that, it is the same, it was purchased from a dealer of the model scoot I have so is original, the problem has been there since I got the scoot yes.
I have got the bike original, original air filter etc, air filter was missing when I got the scoot but it was bogging then too. The previous owner cut off and welded the bit on the exhaust that leads to the air box top, the hole on the top of the air box is not blocked or anything, when I have blocked it the scoot just stalls so I have left it open...should I have? Other than that I am not aware of any other mods.....oh, the pink restrictor wire was cut.
From your description als01seville, I am running lean, but I just don't seem to be able to get the adjustment on the AF to get shot of the bogging, I am making very small turns and running it gain, but it is always there.
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Post by erictheviking666 on Sept 6, 2010 11:15:32 GMT -5
You may be running too lean for any A/F mixture adjustments. Sounds like you may need to re-jet.
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Post by relaxinrob on Sept 6, 2010 12:47:29 GMT -5
When you look at the carb pictured above, I don't have that carb. Mine has a spray pump on the side of it and it does not have a vacuum tube coming from the plate on the accelerator side. There is just a cover screwed over it with the throttle cable support over it.
Any ideas about how this carb may be causing the bogging. I believe Sweden has the same carb. We have both changed them with the same carb, but the bogging continues.
Would it help if I removed 3 of the 6 roller weights? Will that help with bogging? The bogging happens at mid-throttle and it will run away from the gas until it warms up.
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Post by als01seville on Sept 6, 2010 13:40:17 GMT -5
Well IF your sure it is Running Lean then there are only a couple things you can do to get more fuel. Raise the Needle in the Diapghram One Notch until it stops the Bogging. There is only 5 Slots on the Needle the Clip is usually in the middle so you only have two notches to Lower Or Raise the Needle. If that is not enough then you will have to Re-Jet. If its a 24mm Carb they usually come with a 107-110 main jet. I would get a 112.5 and a 115 and put the Needle Clip in the Center again. Adjust your Air/Fuel mixture again and give it a shot. If it bogs DETERMINE If its to much fuel or still a little Lean. If you started with the 115 and it is running Rich then try the 112.5. Then you can again try by adjusting with the Diaphgram Needle and the Air/Fuel Mixture.
Sweden, What happens when you block off the Air inlet that the previous guy took off usually will cause more fuel to come in and of course less air. You can try blocking it off, turn the Air/Fuel Mixture Clockwise about 1/2 turn to cut some fuel and turn Your Idle Speed Screw about 1/8 or so Clockwise as well. Alleyoop
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Post by relaxinrob on Sept 6, 2010 17:14:25 GMT -5
How about this carb we have?
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Post by als01seville on Sept 7, 2010 0:27:26 GMT -5
Relaxinrob, Are you saying the Carb you have is the Slide Carb which has the Throttle Cable in the middle top of the Carb and not the CV Carb like the one I put up a picture of. The Slide Carbs are more finky because the Throttle cable actually pulls the Cylinder with the needle up and down with every little movement of the throttle cable. The mixture on these Carbs has to be right on because the cylinder and needle raise instantly as you twist the throttle. It has to have the right amount of air and fuel really quick or you will get a hesitation or a bog. The CV carb the Cylinder is raised by the amount of air pressure that is coming in as you open the Butterfly with the throttle cable. So it acts as an automatic adjuster for you and you can find tune it easier with the air/fuel mixture and the needle. Alleyoop
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Post by sweden on Sept 7, 2010 0:40:56 GMT -5
Hi Als01seville,
I am going to try and raise the needle tonight and play with the AF adjustment a bit and see what happens. As for re-jetting, how do I see what size jets I have in the carb at the moment, I couldn't see any markings on them but I didn't think they were a 107 - 110 combination, I thought that sounded too big for a 50cc? When I block the pipe connection off on top of the air box it just stalls, looking at other scoots, this pipe leads from the top of the air box and goes to the exhaust, I think it must be for cold starting, but am not sure what effect not having it on the scooter is?
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Post by als01seville on Sept 7, 2010 1:01:44 GMT -5
From what I understand your carb is the Slide Type Carb, meaning the Throttle Cable goes right into the Top of the Carb and actually pulls the Slide Cylinder with the needle up and down. If it is the Slide Carbs are real FINKY to adjust because every little twist of the throttle moves the Slide up or down. What that means is that the Air and Fuel mixture has to be just right to act on the quick rise or lowering of the Slide with the Needle. The CV Carbs like the one I put up that are very common the Cylinder with the Needle activates by the Air Pressure it builds up as the Throttle Cable opens the Butterfly to allow more air into the intake. So a CV carb acts more like an automatic Adjuster to help with the right amount of Air and Fuel. Thats why with a CV Carb it is real easy to adjust them using the Air/Fuel Mixture and Needle postion. Alleyoop
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Post by relaxinrob on Sept 7, 2010 6:55:38 GMT -5
No, it is not a slide carb. It looks just like the one you have pictured above but it does not have a vacuum line coming off the side with the throttle cable. There is just a plate covering that area. Plus it has a spray pump on the carb bowl.
I am sure that Sweden and I are having the same problem.
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Post by sweden on Sept 7, 2010 7:27:21 GMT -5
This is my carb and it doesn't have that line on the throttle side either!
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Post by relaxinrob on Sept 7, 2010 10:14:24 GMT -5
that's my carb too!!
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Post by sweden on Sept 7, 2010 10:31:05 GMT -5
relaxinrob.
Are there any mods on your scoot or has the previous owner made any changes, do you have the pipe going from the exhaust to the top of the air box? I am just wondering if we have any changes in common that might lead us to the solution? I am going out in a minute to block my air intake on the top of the box and see what happens, then I will adjust the needle if I have no joy with that. I will report back!
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Post by sweden on Sept 7, 2010 11:33:12 GMT -5
OK. Good news! ;D So, I blocked the hole on the top of the air box, but that didn't make a spec of difference as much as I adjusted the AF. So I did as als01seville suggested and raised the needle up one notch and as soon as I shot off....ok...went off...the bogging had all but gone, so I turned the AF adjustment clockwise until the revs died down, where I stopped and then counted the turns anti clockwise until the engine idle dropped again and then counted back half the distance clockwise again and it seems to be fine...maybe a little bit out but I am sure I can tweak slightly until it is spot on, but THERE IS NO BOGGING!!! I guess it could have been a combination of the needle and the inlet on top of the box, but I think we are there now. Thank you so much for your help, I hope I can pass on some of my new gained knowledge in the future to the other dawgs! Special thanks to als01seville for keeping at me with the suggestions. Now to fix the fuel gauge, condensation in the dials and sort out that dodgy wiring on the right hand indicator!! Relaxinrob...try raising your needle a notch too and see where you get to, I hope this will be your answer too.
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Post by brigadooner on Sept 7, 2010 14:06:10 GMT -5
Hey Sweden, Great to hear about your sucess.
I've had a similar situation recently actually. My bike has been bogging hard, so I raised the need and BOOM way better. However mine isnt perfect. It will idle and once it gets going it gets GOING but it will bogg in the middle getting up to those high revs and I have to give it throttle oh so slowly to make it get there.
any suggestions? This bike is actually my only transport and its still too unreliable for me to take out again yet!
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Post by sweden on Sept 7, 2010 14:36:45 GMT -5
I am far from an expert yet, but try looking at what als01seville wrote here: Run it and when it Bogs Back Off The Throttle a Little and HOLD IT THERE: a. If it Speeds up or Settle Down you are running LEAN. b. If it Stumbles and or Bogs THEN Settles down you are running RICH.
Once its determined which condition is causing the Bogging then it can be fixed.
From what you say, you could be running rich, I guess that means you could try dropping the needle, not sure how many notches you have on your needle or where you started, I only had 4 notches on mine, maybe als01seville can advise better? Good luck.
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Post by relaxinrob on Sept 7, 2010 15:59:08 GMT -5
Ok....I raised the needle to its highest position and the bogging is gone. Now I need to get it to rev up. I think my rollers are very heavy. I am going to try removing three of them evenly spaced to see if it will rev up. Will let you all know.
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Post by relaxinrob on Sept 7, 2010 17:14:29 GMT -5
I removed 3 rollers and it will now rev up much better. I was able to get 34 mph according to my gps. I have never gone that fast in this scooter.
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Post by brigadooner on Sept 7, 2010 19:41:18 GMT -5
what are these rollers you speak of?
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Post by sweden on Sept 8, 2010 0:29:29 GMT -5
That is good news relaxinrob, glad you got it fixed.
My scoot was bogging when cold this morning so on my way to work I was jumping on and off with a screwdriver and adjusting the AF a little at a time, the last stretch of about 500 meters was fine, hopefully it isn't coming back.
Do these scoots tend to bog a bit when cold, anyone know?
Do tell us what rollers you removed.
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Post by Bluefront on Sept 8, 2010 4:42:06 GMT -5
These are relatively simple carbs. For maximum performance, they need to be adjusted/jetted richer for cold weather use, and leaner in the warm months. I'm talking mixture setting, needle position, main jet, pilot jet......as well as the idle speed.
This is way too much trouble for most people. So the ideal setting would be slightly leaner for warm-weather use, when the scooter is used more often. When it's cold, you just put up with a less-than-ideal jetting.
There is no carb setting that's perfect for both the hot and cold months......unless you get real lucky.
Here's a trick to try.....when it gets colder, put an extra layer of foam over the air filter. That will richen up the entire settings....maybe run better when it's cold out (easy to do).
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Post by sweden on Sept 8, 2010 4:57:38 GMT -5
That makes sense Bluefront, it wasn't that cold out this morning, a bit damp and about 8o at 7am, I had it really warm when I made my changes last night, I had been scooting about for 3/4 of an hour or so, I hope I don't need to do this everyday to get it to run fine, it only takes me 10 minutes to get to work!!!!
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Post by als01seville on Sept 8, 2010 10:36:13 GMT -5
FANTASTIC GUYS!!! Glad it finally is dialed in better and it is running decent for you. I see that your Carb has the PUMP which is probably why you are bogging starting off. When you twist the Throttle the plunger pumps extra gas into the carb and when Cold your Enricher(Choke) is also letting in extra fuel. So when cold it is getting to much gas. If you let it warm up a couple of minutes the Enricher will close and then the Pump will be the only extra fuel coming in when you twist the throttle. If its still bogs starting off you can adjust the Pump arm to not make to early of a contact on the Pump Plunger.
If in the Future you need a new Carb Get a CV Carb and you will not have to deal with the Pump. Also they are much easier to adjust. Alleyoop
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Post by Eat Sleep Scooters on Sept 8, 2010 11:36:37 GMT -5
It sounds like you need to just get another carb. I was having the same stupid problem with my scoot and no matter what I tried it wouldnt run right. I bought a carb from Peace Sports and it runs like a new moped.
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Post by sweden on Sept 9, 2010 0:26:21 GMT -5
The bogging seems to still be there, even when warmer, it disappeared and ran fine after the bike had been running for about 3/4 of an hour and I had raised the needle and set the AF but my run to and from work is about 5km (3 miles) and it bogs all the way there, I am back to messing with the AF adjustment again and getting nowhere again, I really thought I had nailed it and also the scoot now seems to have developed a little chinese mind of its own and doesn't run steadily, feels like I am riding on a flat tyre, the tyres are fine and there doesn't seem to be any play in either wheels, this scoot is driving me mental now!
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Post by erictheviking666 on Sept 9, 2010 11:38:00 GMT -5
It sounds like you need to just get another carb. I was having the same stupid problem with my scoot and no matter what I tried it wouldnt run right. I bought a carb from Peace Sports and it runs like a new moped. I agree! Throw that old carb away and get a new one.
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