Headlights & tail lights won't come on.

[oldhippie]

I just got all the replacement body panels for my 08 Roketa MC54 250B, so I assembled everything, put the battery in and it started right up. It has never been started or had a battery in it prior to now. It came damaged in shipping and it took me 10 months to get Alite Scooters to send everything to me...and I am still missing the grille. Anyway, I have checked every connection, the hi/low switch, and the bulbs with an VOM and they still won't come on. I can only find two fuses...one under the seat and one on top of what looks like the starter relay, I think. The flash switch works as the headlights come on when it is depressed. And the signals, both front and rear work as does the license bulb and the parking lights. Does anyone out there have an idea...maybe a fuse that I am missing? I have to go walk the dog right now but will be back shortly. Old Hippie

[cruiser66]

If I remember correctly, there may be a blocking diode which keeps the headlights off until the motor starts. Make sure to start the motor first and if the headlights still don't work, check the voltage at the battery to see if it is charging. Should be over 13.2 volts in order for the blocking diode to allow the headlights to come on. This is ASSuming you even have the little beast. These diodes seem to be hard to find but I think they are situated near the rectifier/regulator. If you have a good charging voltage, then the diode may be defective or the wire connections may be loose. I believe jrryan has posted a schematic on this model showing a blocking diode. Hopefully, you won't have to start tracing the circuitry.

66

[chaz12]

Could be a fuse too. Easier to check simple things first.

[oldhippie]

Thanks for the info. When I first started it, I did NOT check to see if the headlights were on while it was running, so I will do that first thing after church. If they still are not on, I will check out the voltage across the battery and also see if I can find a blocking diode. I have already checked each connection (must be a zillion of 'em) with my meter and they all are good. Even checked the solder joints where wires are spliced. And, chaz 12, I only found two fuses and they were good, but I don't think either one of them has anything to do with the lights. However, I keep seeing coments in other threads about a "fuse block", like there is a little panel somewhere with a bunch of fuses in it, but I cannot find anything of the sort on mine. If either of you know where any fuses for the lights are, please let me know. Will keep you posted as I try to solve this problem. Also noticed the cooling fan did not come on when the temp guage reached about 3/4 to the H (while idling), so I shut it down. Will check the fan motor and the therm switch tomorrow. Later,

[mafunsalow]

There is no fuse block on the 250b w/257cc. I believe there is one on the 244.Or it may be in the non b model.. There are two fuses in your nose, besides the ones you already found,one for alarm and one for radio. If I remember right I think someone said a while back that there is one in the rear too are but I'm not 100% .
Can't remember for certain if it needs to be running but for some reason it rings a bell.If not..
going back a couple years I had the same issue and it turned out to be a connector in the nose. It was marked with a 3. I had power coming to it (which you do too,making me think it's not a fuse) but evidently when I would connect them the green wire spade was pushing the it's connecting one back making it lose contact.

["Big Guy"]

Sept 6, 2009 0:13:39 GMT -5 mafunsalow said:

There is no fuse block on the 250b w/257cc...

Not exactly correct; there are fuse blocks on SOME 250Bs. We had one in the shop that had a fuse block in the strangest place, under the front faring, in the same place as the VOG, top driver side mounted to the frame.

There was a dead ignition wire and we traced it out inch by inch and discovered the block. You can never tell how they're going to build these things - what one has, the other doesn't; there's no solid consistency in the builds.


-Rich

[winchesterboy]

The headlights and tail lights on my 250b went so dim as to not look like they were on. I had to check them with the lights off in the garage, they were really dim. It turned out my regulator was bad. I think the metal spiral line wrap on the rear brake line had shorted out the stator (the rear brake line's metal spiral wrap was pushing down hard on the yellow wires from the stator) and messed the regulator up. I had no charging voltage from the regulator to the battery.
Also since this scooter has never run you might first want to check the connector on the regulator and make sure it is properly mated.
If you didn't do it before you should do a PDI and "Big Guy" Rich has a great one! Check his post above. Good luck!

[oldhippie]

I really appreciate all the good ideas, suggestions and explanations you Dawgs have given to help me with this pesky problem.
I did an extensive PDI with ALL panels removed and did not find any wiring problems then, however, sadly, I didn't try lighting it up when all the panels were off because a lot of stuff was unconnected. During my attempt to find this electrical problem, I found a bundle of ground wires with a bad solder joint so I repaired that and all other solder joints where they had spliced wires together. Also, when checking the pins in the connectors, I found some of the tangs on the female side were not making good contact, so I fixed those. However, I still don't have headlights or tail lights, but all other light systems work.
The only thing I can find that I cannot figure out is with the connector coming from the wires out of the key switch. The connector FROM the switch has six wires, and the connector that plugs into it only has four wires. Surely someone didn't leave a couple of wires out of the wiring harness. Could someone look at their 250 to see if theirs is the same way? If there are six wires in each connector, maybe they can tell me where the other two wires go so I can add them to my scoot. Thanks...as the adventure continues, thanks for your help.

The Old Hippie

[nsidechgo]

You can try to reverse the connections to the headlights, when I had mine apart I didn't mark the connections & when I put it together had the same problem, it was either on here somewhere or on a whim to reverse the connectors & it has worked since.

[oldhippie]

nsidechgo, thanks, I already tried that but to no avail, but thanks anyway...I found an electrical circuit diagram on the last page of my "Installation" manual that came with the scoot. By the way, those manuals that come with the scooters are a hoot. So, I will study it tonight and see if I can make any sense out of it. In retrospect, this wiring issue has been a good one for me because I have found numerous connections that would have cause me grief down the line if I had not discovered them now. Just have to muster up a mess more of patience. Oh well, back to work. The Old Hippie

[mafunsalow]

Oldhippie, I know it is highly unlikely since the lights not working are all on the same circuit, but have you checked the bulbs? Wondering if one blown or has a bad ground might throw the whole loop out.

[oldhippie]

mafunsalow, good thoughtand thanx for the idea, however, the "flash high" switch, right next to the hi/lo switch, lights up the hi beams when depressed. Also, when I was doing the PDI, I replaced ALL the bulbs with new "store-bought" bulbs locally. It's like when the ignition switch is turned on, it does not route power to the headlights or tail lights, but all other lights work. I just know it is probably going to be something really simple when I find the problem. I studied the schematic last night and saw a fuse on the diagram that I need to see if I have one where it shows one to be. It must be hiding really well because I am so intimately familiar with all the wiring, it would really surprise me if I found a "new" fuse at this stage of the quest. The Old Hippie

[JR]

Alright I think after reading all this I understand what ya have so I've got some questions and then we'll figure out how to fix your lights!

(1) The scooter will start and run correct? If so then forget the fuses as there is a 15 amp one that controls the 12vdc circuit and if it's bad no blinkers, stop lights, horn, radio, flashers instrument lights or license plate light! There is a 20 amp fuse on the starter relay if it is bad no start, no nothing!

(2) Have you messed with the key switch wires? DON'T

Now if all this works if you look at the wiring diagram you said you found on the installation book you will find this diagram to be true and correct! If you have no tail/head lights you either have a bad cionnection or wire which BTW is a RED wire between the diode and the what they call the manostat on the drawing and where it hooks up the to the head/tail light circuit or worse yet you have a bad manostat or regulator! The head/tail lights work ONLY when the engine is running and work off the voltage directly from the manostat/regulator not the battery!

The blocking diode is directional and allows voltage to pass to the battery to keep it charged but does not allow voltage from the battery to go back to the regulator! The diode is on the diagram as a black triangle.

Don't take for granted that his one wire is good even if the connections look good, Ohm it out if you find no bad connection! If you find nothing it's time to check the regulator output! JRR

[JR]

BTW this fuse you say is hiding is probably the listed 20 amp fuse right? if so it's right on the relay itself, has a cap on it and unplugs out of a socket on the relay itself, and also has a spare fuse holder too! JRR

[oldhippie]

jrryan, thanks for the great information. Cruiser66 had mentioned checking the output of the regulator, however, I have yet to check to see what the voltage is across the battery while the engine is running, so when the rain dries up around here, I will do that first.

I am aware of the two fuses that you mentioned, but the way the schematic is drawn, it looks like the 15 amp fuse is located in the line right after the switch assembly, so that's why I thought I could not locate that fuse...and, of course, as it is drawn on the schematic, the 20 amp fuse is on the starting relay. And they are both good.

And my next step was going to be delving into the ignition switch to check out the wiring and the switch operation, so, I am glad you said that was a no-no. Thanks, I won't go into it. Although I am still confused why there are 6 wires in one side of the connector and 4 wires on the other. But looking at the schematic, there are only four wires indicated on the switch, so that looks right.

So you are saying that the item they are calling the monostat is actually the regulator. Makes sense to me. I don't know what the diode looks like right now, but looks like I will be removing some more panels (darn!) so I can trace out the red wire for continuity and to locate the diode. Right now I can start the scoot and the lights do not work, so, most likely it will be one or more of your ideas, so, when it dries up around here, I will be checking on the above. Later, The Old Hippie

[JR]

Well it's easy to eliminate the manostat/regulator. Start the scooter on the center stand and put your volt meter on the battery. If the battery is good and charged then you should read any where from 14 to 16 volts! If this is the case then ya got a bad wire or bad connection on the wire that as I said ties in the head/tail light circuit!

Now if you have poor voltage and since you have no lights at all you could have a bad plug in connection where the regulator plugs up! So don't just think the regulator is bad when you check for voltage!

Since you say you have no lights instead of just weak lights I really think you have a bad connection on the plug going to regulator a bad connection or broke wire!

If you have good voltage then it's simple start looking at the red wire that hooks up the head/tail ligh circuit!

I'll also give you a tip to find it easier! Yes get the panels out of the way on the right side as this is where the main harness runs and go to where the tail/stop lights plug in at the back of the scooter and put your hand on the red wire. Trace it back to where it ties on. They use the piss poor crimp connectors. You will find two other wires, both red at this crimp fitting, one goes to the head lights and the other to the manostat/regulator! JRR

[oldhippie]

jrryan...again, thanks for your help and support...means a lot to an old goat like me out in the boonies. I just gave up on the rain quitting around here (but we really need rain in West Texas), and rolled the scoot onto our back sun room (without the sun right now!) so I could take off the tail panel units. Both right and left top panels come off as a unit along with the tail lights all in one piece, and is a fairly easy process. I found that one plug was disconnected...either that or I loosened it when I was inspecting the bundle. It is the one that has three yellow wires that plugs into the monostat. I also ohmed the red wire to the front and it is good, as are the connections. When I tried starting it, I found that since I had been using the battery for testing so much that it would not start the scoot. So, I have it on the charger (2amps) right now and will attempt to start it later on. Hoping for a good outcome. Will keep you posted.

And you are right about the pp crimp connectors. The other is their pp soldering processes where wires are tied together...they use minimal solder and just a touch of heat...looks a lot like pig crap. I guess the workers are limited as to how much time they can spend making the wiring harnesses. I am bundle-tying the harness with ties and putting plastic wire loom covering on as much of the wiring that I can...will take photos when done. Thanks so much for your continuing assistance. Yes we can.

The Old Hippie

[JR]

Well my friend as soon as you plug it up I feel like all will be well! LOL those 3 yellow wires if you look at your wiring diagram you will see that 2 of them come directly from the stator or what they have on the diagram as magnetic motor. The other one runs from the manostat/regulator to the auto enricher/choke. So with this unplugged you not only were not recieving any voltage fro your head/tail lights your auto choke would never shut off either so it was running rich! Also you would never have a charged battery either!

I re-soldiered my connections and used heat shrink on all. I don't know sometimes as folks say that the OEM batteries are crap and I'm sure there are a lot of them that are and also folks say a lot about fuel starvation but I still have the OEM fuel pump and battery on mine and bought it last September! Got 4200 miles on her so I will say that all of this hard thourough PDI that you are doing will pay off because at least you won't be on the side of the road with a dead scooter because of one PP crimp fitting! LOL JRR

[oldhippie]

Have been working on the wiring to make it a little more trustworthy. If the photo made the trip, you will see how to have a blast on a wet Saturday afternoon. Will attempt to take it outside and start it when the rain stops. I surely hope you are right! Later, Old Hippie

Attachments:

[JR]

Heck just fire it up in the house for a second or two! LOl that will tell you if ya got it right! You do have the front shroud back on and the lights hooked up don't you? Good looking job on the wiring! JRr

[oldhippie]

I think this is a big test of my patience. After reading your last suggestion, I thought, heck, why not go ahead and fire it up in the house! So I put the freshly charged battery back in, crossed my fingers, squeezed the brake and...nothing! Oh boy! The right brake turned the brake lights on so that told me there was something wrong in the left brake circuit/plug/wiring. Sure 'nuff, the plug on that circuit had come undone!. So, to keep the plugs from coming undone anymore, I went to every plug all over the scoot and placed a nylon tie around each one of them so they COULD NOT come undone ever again!. Now I was ready ...crank ...sputt ...crank...sput, sput, sput. Oh no. Crank a few more times and it tried starting but wouldn't. Didn't even idle and if given any gas at all, nothing. Played with the idle mixture screw but to no avail. Think I will pull the carb next to see if there is some crud in there keeping things from operating correctly. What else can go wrong here!

Have some family matters to attend to before I can spend any more time on the scooter. Funny how life gets in the way sometimes, isn't it. Will keep you posted and thanks for all your help.

The Old Hippie.

[oldhippie]

Found a little bit of trash in the carb bowl when I drained it. That's a pretty neat plan for the scoot to have a little remote carb bowl drain...makes removing the carb a lot cleaner. Also found one of the orifices had some trash in it...the rest of the carb was OK. Put it back on, primed it with some raw gas and it fired right up...and the TAIL LIGHTS CAME ON!...but NOT THE HEADLIGHTS! Carumba!!! So that means the little diode must be good because the tail lights work when the engine runs. I tried the hi/lo switch while it was running...and nothing. The flash button still turns on the high beams when it is depressed, so that circuit has power. Well, guess I'll have to do some more studying of the wiring schematic, take the nose cone off again and do some more wire tracing...what a bummer! There's bound to be a break in one of the wires that I haven't found yet, but I'm gonna get it! I just know I will find it.
Hangin' tough, The Old Hippie

[JR]

Ok that absolutely means one of 3 things,
(1) The red wire that splices together with the wire coming from the manostat where the tail lights hook up too is not making a good connection at that splice.

(2) the wire itself is broke at some point

(3) Both headlights where they hook up have a poor connection at the plug.

If I was on Let's Make A Deal I would choose door number 2!! LOL JRR

[oldhippie]

After doing some studying of the schematic last night, I am inclined to agree with you on #2...and #1 being strong possibility, but #3 has already been checked out numerous times. I just hate taking off the nose cone again and maybe more panels. Taking them off is a snap, but you know how they go back on .

I don't know if you remember my battle with Alite, but the scooter came in with the crate so damage that it didn't look like anything inside it could have survived...talk about the extreme of drop shipping...man! Anyway, a lot on the scoot was damaged and it looks like the rough treatment took its toll on the electrical system in some way, me thinks. I'l find out soon, I hope.

I went out early this morning to start the scoot because I just wanted to hear it run, and to ensure myself that it wasn't just a fluke that it ran yesterday...it must have been coming up on TDC because it barely turned over and started right up...PHEW! Happy camper! I then covered it back up and got back to work on the bath remodel to make the "Boss" happy. I think I could work 10 hours a day doing scooter stuff, but she thinks I should put that many hours in on the house...wipped, I guess. And we will be going to Corpus tomorrow to see the grandkids and their parents, so the scoot will just have to be lonesome for a few days. Will keep you posted. Have a good weekend.

The Old Hippie

[oldhippie]

IT'S ALIIIIIIVE! IT'S ALIIIIIIVE! Finally! After unwrapping all the black tape from ALL of the wires to inspect for breaks, and after checking all of the splices, and plugs, and connectors, I didn't find anything that would keep current from getting to the headlights. Sooooooo, I decided to check the dimmer switch one more time. And THAT"S WHERE THE PROBLEM WAS! Apparently I missed finding the problem the first time I looked at it. I took it apart and did a really close inspection with a 10-power eye piece and found two things. There was a solder bugger that was touching another solder point of another wire on the switch...but, more importantly, after taking the switch all apart, I found that the guy or gal that assembled the thing had put the little three-point contact plate in upside down, consequently, this did not let any current go to the headlights. Actually, the upside down contact plate kept a short from happening (from the solder that had crept over to another wire). Sometimes a blind hog finds an acorn in spite of his handicap.

Well, I cannot thank all of you who helped me get this thing fixed. Jrryan, I want to send you a bone for all your help. Never have done that, but I'm gonna learn how.

I can't wait to get all the panels back on the thing so I can enjoy this great weather! Thanks so much for your help.

The Old Hippie