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Post by bigdaddy on Jun 5, 2009 8:02:10 GMT -5
Hello Dawgs,
I have a question about the type of lubrication used on the roller weights. When I dissasembled my variator, it had a fair amount of grease in it. My motorcycle/snowmobile mechanic told me not to use grease, but to use a dry lubricant such as dry graphite. I cleaned out all of the grease, sprayed all internal parts with a high quality dry lube, and then put a shot of graphite onto each roller. When I reassembled it, the weights would fall out of their grooves from the vibration of my impact wrench. I opened the variator again, and put a thin layer of grease on each roller just to hold them in place, while leaving all the dry lube on everything. It went back together smoothly, and seems to work fine (25 miles so far). After reading various threads on this forum, it seems that I should have used grease. Am I going to wreck my weights using only dry lube? What type/weight of grease should I use? Should I pack it full or put in enough to provide good lubrication while still allowing movement of the rollers? I have a MC-54-250B with 2700 miles on it. Thanks for your help.
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Post by harrywr2 on Jun 5, 2009 8:20:30 GMT -5
I don't have any grease in any of my variators.
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Post by firstscoot on Jun 5, 2009 9:35:43 GMT -5
Mine has grease kind of around the edges of the variator but not were the weights roll.
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Post by Gary on Jun 5, 2009 9:51:06 GMT -5
I have been using a light coating of hi-temp white lithium grease. Just a dab on each roller. You certaily don't want to pack the variator full. From what Harry says, maybe the grease is not necessary, I just do it for peace of mind.
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Post by sam2000pres on Jun 5, 2009 11:16:33 GMT -5
Ruined the roller weights in my Tank 250 DE when they dried out the remaining lube and flat spotted...
Bought a Dr Pulley variator with the sliders, installed dry per instructions, and ran it for a while, about 100 mi... seemed better but transition from low to higher gearing was not completely smooth...
Took variator apart, added a LITTLE lithium grease, made all the difference, now running VERY smoothly in all speeds.
A little grease seems to be needed even with the self-lubing plastic over time.
TK
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Post by Bought a Morph on Jun 5, 2009 11:27:36 GMT -5
The service manual for the Helix specifies 25 grams or slightly less than one ounce of grease. I'm not sure what one ounce of grease looks like but I believe the massive amount of grease in my 01 Helix's variator is causing the problems I'm having with downshifting. I'm going to clean it tonight and find out.
When I opened up mu 86 Helix, It was like mud in there, Again massive amounts. I cleaned it all and just coated each roller with alight coat of grease.
BTW, I don't understand why the rollers in your scooter would be falling out from the vibration of the impact wrench. That does not sound right. The grease is not meant to secure the rollers. Are you sure you put it back together correctly? I didn't on the first try.
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Post by Riddick79 on Jun 5, 2009 15:05:34 GMT -5
I had the exact same as Sam2000Pres. I had to add grease to the sides of the variator, not on the actual variator weights.
It felt really rough on take offs but the grease fixed it.
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Post by Bought a Morph on Jun 5, 2009 21:52:52 GMT -5
I had the exact same as Sam2000Pres. I had to add grease to the sides of the variator, not on the actual variator weights. It felt really rough on take offs but the grease fixed it. Interesting. We have been lead to believe that the vibration at low speeds is often due to worn/flat spots on the rollers, which never really made sense to me because some "rollers" are flat to began with. I have the same low speed rough vibration. When I cleaned the massive amounts of grease out of the variator, perhaps I didn't put enough grease in there. Only one way to find out! Will update.
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Post by rerun2 on Jun 6, 2009 4:45:03 GMT -5
The vibration can be the belt, particularly if there is an accumulation of 'rubber dust' in the system. It is certainly not the only thing that can cause the roughness when starting off, but it often is. Remember you have a RUBBER drive belt, not a hard chain or drive shaft. The nature of pliable material lends itself to this type of behavior. If the bike is smoothed out when the speedo is reading 9-10mph, you are most likely not having any problem, just the natural state of things... ;d
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Post by bigdaddy on Jun 6, 2009 9:19:00 GMT -5
Wannahelix,
I had removed both pulleys to check everything while I had it apart. I was putting the front pulley on first, which has no springs to put pressure on the rollers. The belt is the only pressure source on that pulley when it is assembled. The pulley halves were opening slightly when I impacted the nut back on, which was enough to cause the rollers to fall out of their grooves. The grease held them in place until I installed the belt and back pulley. It now has over 100 miles on it since re-lubing the rollers, and it is running smooth.
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Post by Bought a Morph on Jun 8, 2009 13:14:43 GMT -5
Well I added slightly less than 1 ounce of grease to my rollers (helix) and that solved the rough vibration when starting out. The last guy packed massive amounts of grease in there and after I cleaned it out I added too little grease.
I was sure I needed new rollers based on much advice online but do yourself a favor and make sure you have enough but not too much grease in there. Both issues cause problems.
Now I'm on to the 01 which also has easily three or more times the recommended amount of grease. My theory is the massive amounts of grease is preventing the rollers from 'repositioning' fast enough and is causing the gearing to stick in the higher gears and thus acting as a brake when slowing down.
Will update when I have the answer.
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Post by JR on Jun 8, 2009 20:18:32 GMT -5
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Post by Kiwiscoot on Jun 8, 2009 20:37:43 GMT -5
I posted about my servicing of my wifes Xingyue 150's variator, but I could not find it with "Search", so forgive me if I repeat myself. IMHO Grease, in an air cooled environment where air is drawn from a dusty environment, is a bad idea in my book. Grease + dust = grinding paste = wear = failure = less reliability. High temperature dry lube is the best lubricant for such an hostile environment. Nothing is "wet" to cause dust to stick and cause wear. Dry lubricant like graphite forms a very smooth slippery surface and dust should just blow off. It coats the surface of the sliding surfaces and acts as a barrier between the surfaces. An HB pencil is a very handy and inexpensive source of graphite. Graphite can withstand the high temperatures that a hard working variator will experience. I service delicate medical equipment and use this extensively. When I serviced the Xingyue's variator I used wet&dry 1000 grid emery paper and lightly smoothed the rough castings on the ramps using water while sanding. I likewise smoothed the surfaces of the rollers. I then coated all the surfaces with graphite by "coloring" the surfaces in using the pencil. The variator pick-up is very smooth now and the vibrations almost gone. Spray on dry lube may be silicon based which gum up with high temperatures. IMHO just use graphite.
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Post by JR on Jun 8, 2009 20:55:29 GMT -5
The graphite is a very good idea but I did notice the statement of the vibration is almost gone. Had the very same issues and also did all you did as far as cleaning and wet sanding but the OEM rollers are not very good and even tried a new set and all shifted well but that little pesky vibration but when I went to the sliders vibration gone!! Wasn't sold on sliders until then, wish I had done it a lot sooner. JRR vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&videoid=31718625
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Post by Kiwiscoot on Jun 8, 2009 21:27:06 GMT -5
Probably the sliders has a larger contact area with the ramp, giving for the same rpm less pressure on the surface = less friction and smoother action.
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Post by Bought a Morph on Jun 9, 2009 15:05:06 GMT -5
As I understand it, Rollers don't "roll", they slide. That's what causes the flat spots. So are Dr Pulley "sliders" really an innovation/improvement?
Member sam2000pres reports that he needed to add grease to these "grease less" Dr Pulley sliders for them to perform properly.
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Post by Gary on Jun 9, 2009 15:32:48 GMT -5
Helix - I found the difference between rollers and sliders noticable. I think because of their unique shape, the sliders may give a slightly bigger range of gearing. Don't know this for sure though. Gary
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Post by Kiwiscoot on Jun 9, 2009 16:11:56 GMT -5
As I understand it, Rollers don't "roll", they slide. That's what causes the flat spots. So are Dr Pulley "sliders" really an innovation/improvement? Member sam2000pres reports that he needed to add grease to these "grease less" Dr Pulley sliders for them to perform properly. You are partly correct. As they are captive between two surfaces they either roll on one surface and slide on the other or they slide on both of the surfaces. Dr Pulley rollers are in reality sliders, providing two flat surfaces for sliding. This equate to a bigger surface area, which under the same conditions give the same pressure against the sliding surfaces, but spread over a larger area. This gives less pressure/friction for a given area and the wear is spread over a larger area. The wear does not alter the shape of the roller as profound as with round rollers. As the round rollers get flat spots their action change which makes them stick and operate unsatisfactory. With round rollers the contact area is so small that any imperfections in the variator surfaces will have a profound effect on the operation of the roller. The Dr Pulley sliders overcome that by having a bigger surface area giving smoother operation.
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Post by leo on Jun 10, 2009 12:50:06 GMT -5
my variator is made of 3 large pieces plus 2 grease seals and the backing plate. the 3 large pieces is a journal which is splined to the crankshaft and the 2 pulley halves. the pulley halves slide back and forth along the journal to change gears, this area of the variator must be greased to reduce wear.
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