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Post by dishe on May 25, 2009 13:00:45 GMT -5
Hey folks- Kliff has already given me his whole Eagle from GSmotorWorks endorsement, but I'm curious what other users have to say about them as a brand name.
I'm looking to get a new scoot, and after some bad experiences with SunL, I'm doing my homework this time around. I was under the impression that Roketa was one of the more recommended brands around here until I found GSMotorWorks, and kliff's glowing recommendation for their Eagle bikes.
I haven't seen many folks here talk about Eagle much, which is what makes me hesitate. Kliff may have just had some good experiences, so I wanted to get some more info before I make the purchase- I asked him about it personally, and he says that in his opinion Eagle is not only good, but sits on top of the list of quality as far as Chinese scoots go, easily outlasting a Roketa. If that's true, why aren't more Dawgs discussing them and/or recommending them?
Kliff- its not that I don't beleive you, man... I just want to hear what someone else has to say as well, you know? I can't trust something until I've heard the pros AND the cons...
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Post by kz1000st on May 25, 2009 13:24:54 GMT -5
Hi, I'm the guy who put kliff on to GS motorworks in the first place because they are a stand up outfit. Recently I broke some valve springs by running the engine at full throttle for much longer than I should have. My fault, it's a scooter, not a Ninja. When I took the scoot apart I was astounded at what I found. Electrical connections with click locks, a Japanese carburetor and a rubber covered aluminum intake manifold. Even the fuel lines and vacuum hoses were pretty decent and the frame welds are really nice. I don't know what other scooters look like but mine is comparable to a Japanese motorcycle and I don't feel GSM scrimped anywhere. Plus when I called John he was ready to send me a whole new cylinder head, complete with valves, because I paid for a one year parts warranty. Kliff rebuilt my head so it wasn't necessary, but John sent me all the gaskets I needed, twice, because of a mixup with the first order. Now don't get all hesitant about an Eagle because I broke one, it was my fault and I should have known better. I could have broken anything running the way I did. The silly motorcyclist forgot a 150cc scooter is NOT a 650cc Kawasaki. My point in telling you I had it apart is letting you know I found quality components in a scooter from a company that cares.
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Post by bigbottom on May 25, 2009 15:00:37 GMT -5
Eagle may very well be a better quality scooter than a lot of other Chinese brands, but that's not going to make internet buyers buy more of them than other brands sold on the internet. For the most part (and even though this is a blanket statement, it's not that black and white) internet buyers want the lowest cost possible. To get the lowest cost possible one has to be willing to give up quality. Quality is not free. A quality scooter costs more to produce and distribute. To be frank, if the typical interent buyer were willing to pay more for quality, they wouldn't settle for buying off the internet. Most people buying on the internet aren't that far away from a local dealer. If the internet buyer were willing to pay more, then they might as well support their local dealer, who likely carries the better quality Chinese built bikes (Fly, Lance, Qlink, Schwinn, etc..). If Eagle does sell a better quality scooter on the internet, then their market is those internet buyers who are willing to pay more for quality, but don't live near a local dealer. Those buyer's exist, but are a small fraction of the typical internet scooter buyer.
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Post by kz1000st on May 25, 2009 20:58:21 GMT -5
But that's not his question as I read it. As far as I'm concerned GSM is putting in good components where most people have headaches. Good electrics, intake manifolds that won't crack and decent hoses. I've seen the prices of some of those B & M scooters you name. Many start in the lower $2000 range. Twice as much as a 13" wheel scoot from GSM. Dishe is asking for a recommendation of quality after a bad experience. Sure a Znen from a B & M is a great idea if he wants to spend big bucks. There are even Znens available from online sellers but there are no guarantees there either. All I know is what I saw on my scooter and nobody was more surprised than I was to find a Keihin carburetor there.
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Post by usfmarine on May 26, 2009 1:45:24 GMT -5
Keihin clone right? Not arguing with you, but how do you know it wasn't a Keihin clone like every other Chinese scoot has.
Not saying the clones are bad, I've used two 24mm CV clones with zero issues.
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Post by kz1000st on May 26, 2009 6:07:49 GMT -5
"Keihin clone right?"
I'm assuming it was Keihin because it said Japan on the side and had a K number on it. I know the Chinese are shameless copiers but I don't think they'd write Japan on a clone. Did your clones have Japan on them? And I mean Japan not Janpan or some other variation.
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Post by bigbottom on May 26, 2009 8:16:37 GMT -5
But that's not his question as I read it. I answered his question as I read it. I read this question in his post: I prefaced my answer that it may very well be true, and then explained why. You may not like my answer, but it did infact address his question as it reads. To be honest, I'm begining to question your intentions for participating on this board. When I posted that I had been waiting for weeks for ATV Discounter to ship me my scooter, I received a PM from YOU recommending that I cancel my order and buy from GS Motorworks instead. I've seen you post recommendations for GS Motorworks in numerous threads within momments of each other (SPAM). And now, after I post an answer to a question that in no way makes GS Motorworks quality and/or service sound bad, you attempt to discount my answer. Why? I don't know! Maybe because it doesn't give a reason for people to choose to buy from GS Motorworks? Who knows. But for whatever reason you felt motivated to make me look bad. Look, I don't know who you are, or why you are here. I certainly respect your right to be here and express your opinion. But if you are going to chose to PM me, and attempt to discount my response to another poster, then don't be shocked when I respond by pointing out that if you look like a duck, and you sound like a duck, you probably are a duck. Perhaps you aren't an employee of GS Motorworks, or a shill for the company. If you aren't, then stop behaving like one. That's just my opinion. Take it for what it's worth. Ride safe!
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Post by kz1000st on May 26, 2009 10:32:51 GMT -5
I'm sorry if I sound too overzealous for GSM. I'll back off from now on. And certainly semantics isn't my strong suit. But I've been around bikes since I was a baby and after all I've read about people having delivery problems and then problems after delivery I don't get why you wouldn't want to hear about someone who does right by its customers. It's been somehow accepted that warranty coverage is non-existent on scooters bought online, yet kliff and I have had our issues taken care of rapidly and at no cost to us. That's better than some dealers we've read about. I didn't put words in kliff's mouth, he discovered how they were on his own. To be honest I PM'ed him with great trepidation about GSM. I was afraid that my experience might not be the same for him as it was for me. I even said I hope he didn't think I was meddling. You seem to think I'm meddling instead of trying to help. Understandable, this time of year alot of people are buying scooters and the question of where to buy comes up alot. Who I am is easy. PM me anytime and I'll give you my phone number and we can talk. Or give me yours-I have about a zillion rollover minutes on my cell phone. Kliff can tell you I'm a nice guy and always ready to chat about bikes or scooters.
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Post by dishe on May 26, 2009 12:44:29 GMT -5
Whoa, whoa! I didn't mean to cause any fighting here! Look, I don't think Kliff works for GSMW... over PM, I asked him if he thought Eagle were so good that I wouldn't have any of the problems I had with my SunL. He actually suggested that maybe a chinese bike is too frustrating for me and I should consider a Honda or Bergman if I'm looking for maintenance free. That's not something a self-promoter for GSMW would do.
I haven't really spent much time talking to kz1000st, however I'm starting to believe he and kliff may very well just be people who are impressed and enthusiastically so. I have questioned their enthusiasm as well, and posted this thread to get other opinions. Not because I think they *work* for GSMW, but rather because they just may have had the 2 really great experiences.
Speaking of ks1000st, where in "southern Tier, NY" do you live? I'm having trouble finding NY folks on this forum...
Bigbottom- in response to your original assessment, my SunL came from a local dealer who I bought from because I figured I can go back to him with any problems, which is better than buying online. However, I found the dealer experience to be quite awful, and I can't find a local dealer who sells anything else. I ended up working on my SunL mostly myself, and if I'm going to continue doing that, I'd like a scoot that comes with better components from the factory. It doesn't hurt that GSMW prices are actually LOWER than what I bought the SunL for (obviously dealer had to make some money).
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Post by bigbottom on May 26, 2009 13:42:52 GMT -5
I have no intention of fighting. I expressed my opinion, and my opinion was discounted by someone who has religously promoted the company at question. I don't know who they are, or why they have such a religous passion for the company, but regardless of their passion my answer was certainly valid to the question being asked.
It wouldn't shock me at all if GS Motorworks quality is better than other Chinese scooter brands. It wouldn't shock me if GS Motorworks service is better than other online Chinese scooter dealers. My only point is there is a reason why better quality and better service will not make an online dealer win the majority of online sales. And this because the typical internet buyer is looking for one thing... the best price.
When I said I had been waiting weeks for ATV Discounter to send me my MC-54 250 scooter, kz1000st PM'd me about getting the same style from GS Motorworks. I looked into it. I paid $1699 plus $100 shipping to ATVD, yet GSMW wanted $2099 for the same style. Granted, GSMW said it came with a japanese carb and a whole lot of other added quality. But I didn't care. The additional quality cost $300 more. I wasn't looking for quality. I just wanted the best price. That's it. Nothing more. I plan on being my own quality assurance for my bike. In fact, half the fun of owning a cheap chinese scooter is working on it to keep it running the way you want. Having a dealer put in upgraded quality parts in a sense takes that fun away.
The point is, that's what the typical internet buyer is. The want the cheapest price available. Probably for many different reasons, but the bottom line is it's all about price. If quality was important to them they'd buy a better bike from a local dealer. And I'm not talking about buying a Roketa, Tank, or SUNL from a local dealer. I'm talking about better brands altogether. Some even made in China (QLink, Fly, Lance, Schwinn, etc...).
I'm not saying there is no market for GS Motorworks. What I'm saying is their market is a niche of internet scooter buyers. It's those internet buyers who are looking for quality and don't have any local dealer options. That's a small fraction of all internet buyers. That is why most people on this site bought online from a different dealer.
If the argument being made is that Eagle is on par with a QLink, Fly, Lance or Schwinn, but at a cheaper price, and GS Motorworks supports customers better than a QLink, Fly, Lance or Schwinn dealer can support their customers, then that could be easily provn. Lets get Big Guy an Eagle and have him tear it down. Let's see how well he can service it.
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Post by xs650 on May 26, 2009 17:40:17 GMT -5
It's those internet buyers who are looking for quality and don't have any local dealer options. \ You left out another category. The technically competent scooter buyer that doesn't want a B&M's "mechanics" touching their scoot.
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Post by bigbottom on May 26, 2009 18:36:51 GMT -5
But don't chastise those of us, trying to educate the newbs... ;D I didn't chastise anyone. I posted my answer to the question. I was then chastised for not answering the question being asked. The person who chastised my post was also someone who spammed me with a PM promoting GSMW. I would be a fool to not question his motives given his PM and numerous other posts regarding GSMW. If you equate that to me "chastising" him then so be it, but I really have no intention to get into a semantics argument, or any argument for that matter. None of my posts here had nothing to do with you. You didn't PM me trying to sell me on GSMW. KZ did. I'm glad you love you Eagle. Honestly, I really am! Go Eagle! I hope they sell them like crazy! God bless capitalism and free enterprise. But if one asks me why more people on the internet don't by Eagle if their quality is so much better than other online dealers, I'm only being intellectually honest by saying the number one priority of the typical internet scooter buyer is cost, not quality. By saying that I'm not saying it holds true for every internet buyer, just most. For you quality was important. Why? I don't know. I won't speak for you. You mentioned you didn't have many local options available. As I said before that would be the niche of internet buyers that GSMW would appeal to you. Why I have been chastised by you two for saying what is nothing more than a simple honest answer to the question being asked is beyond me. I really don't want to even analyze it. I just hope it ends. As for asking you why you did a charge back instead of accepting the refund that was offered to you, yes I'm still intriqued by why you would do that. I've had merchant accounts in businesses I've run before, and charge backs have a negative effect on the business credit with the bank. If that was your intent, then kudos to you. You did what you intended to do. What I usually find is people who ask the bank for a charge back instead of taking the refund didn't know that one was different from the other.
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Post by bigbottom on May 26, 2009 18:37:49 GMT -5
It's those internet buyers who are looking for quality and don't have any local dealer options. \ You left out another category. The technically competent scooter buyer that doesn't want a B&M's "mechanics" touching their scoot. Ah yes! That person would too!
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Post by dishe on May 26, 2009 20:21:20 GMT -5
Ok- how about I rephrase.... Are Eagle scooters really as good as folks like Kliff and kz say? The "why aren't more folks talking about them" line was more to explain WHY I'm asking than actually being a separate question. Also, bigbottom, the question of GSMW's demographic has a simple answer- if you have a superior product (assuming they ARE as good as everyone says) and are charging about the same amount as the cheapo importers, why would anyone buy from somewhere else? It may be possible, as I'm starting to suspect, that many people are not familiar with them.
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Post by bigbottom on May 26, 2009 21:12:46 GMT -5
Also, bigbottom, the question of GSMW's demographic has a simple answer- if you have a superior product (assuming they ARE as good as everyone says) and are charging about the same amount as the cheapo importers, why would anyone buy from somewhere else? If they are charging about the same amount, then no one would buy somewhere else. That's common sense. However, I found my scooter 15% cheaper than GSMW was selling their Honda Reflex clone. That was two months ago. You can now find Honda Reflex clones for 30% cheaper than GSMW sell theirs.
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Post by kz1000st on May 26, 2009 21:24:54 GMT -5
And if I may clear something up. When I PM'ed you, as I recall, cost never came up as an issue in your posts. Congratulations on landing a MC 54 for such an incredible price, but usually ATVD only sells the Bali variants at that price. If I had known that you were waiting for a great deal like that I wouldn't have "spammed" you. I assumed you were about to spend the customary $2000 to $2200 (or more) most MC54-250Bs go for.
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Post by dishe on May 26, 2009 22:18:04 GMT -5
If they are charging about the same amount, then no one would buy somewhere else. That's common sense. However, I found my scooter 15% cheaper than GSMW was selling their Honda Reflex clone. That was two months ago. You can now find Honda Reflex clones for 30% cheaper than GSMW sell theirs. Fair enough- but I'm not buying that style. Their smaller body 150 is $799 with the front wheel assembly required, and the mid-size fare GS-tracer 150 comes fully assembled to your door for $999. That's pretty good for those models, less than some online retailers with worse reputations. In fact ATVDiscounter, arguably one of the cheapest online retailers, sells a comparable scoot for $988. That's less than a $20 difference, however I notice that ATVD is chock full of extra fees such as a $99 residential delivery fee, 19.95 tag and title fee, and an apparent $29 mandatory freight protection. The $999 price from GSmotorworks includes standard shipping and applicable fees, making it far less in the end. Not to mention I can't find many stories of people who claim ATVD actually shipped their order in a timely manner. So far haven't heard any terrible shipping stories from GSMW. I dunno- I think I'm starting to understand where these fanboys are coming from, and I haven't even bought from them yet... My hesitation, however, is that they are pretty poor at running an internet shop. My emails go mostly unanswered, and much of their site is broken and out of date (price details mention the sale ends in April, helmet pages are missing, etc). Then again, I'm looking for a place to buy a scoot where I'll get the most value for my dollar. I'd rather they ship the scooter and be there for support than have the worlds' greatest website. Still, my question was about the quality and experience. bigbottom, I appreciate your responses, but since you've never touched, much less bought, an Eagle from GSMW, I'm afraid your comments are just speculation. I understand your question of motives, I felt the same question and appreciate you validating my feelings, but now I'd like to hear from some people who an opinion of the actual product... that is, if there ARE any besides Kliff and kz...
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Post by usfmarine on May 27, 2009 2:21:20 GMT -5
It's those internet buyers who are looking for quality and don't have any local dealer options. \ You left out another category. The technically competent scooter buyer that doesn't want a B&M's "mechanics" touching their scoot. +1 bone for you. I am no expert, but I do not trust the local B&M scooter dealers at all. I frequently get the feeling that I know more than they do, which of course is scary since this is their line of work.
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Post by dishe on May 27, 2009 23:50:49 GMT -5
So- only two people on this board have ever bought, touched, or even have remote opinions about Eagle scooters? Particularly ones from GSMW?
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Post by xs650 on May 28, 2009 1:47:39 GMT -5
So- only two people on this board have ever bought, touched, or even have remote opinions about Eagle scooters? Particularly ones from GSMW? If you don't trust them, don't buy from them. Problem solved.
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Post by kz1000st on May 28, 2009 6:24:22 GMT -5
"If you don't trust them, don't buy from them. Problem solved."
Even I agree with that. Because if you buy from someone and you're not convinced they're good you will inevitably have problems. It's all part of Murphy's Law. Then even John won't be able to make you happy because you'll have had expectations that no one can satisfy. So if you don't think GSMW is the company for you, try someone else. Heck, try superiorpowersports.com and let us know how they are. They have seemingly good prices and a good selection. You can report back and let us hear how fast they delivered and how long it took for your paperwork to arrive. Then later, how well they backed up their product if warranty problems cropped up. I'm not being sarcastic, I'm seriously trying to send you somewhere that isn't a certain company that takes up to two months to deliver and doesn't have a good parts department.
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Post by rocketdog on May 28, 2009 6:49:39 GMT -5
I have an Eagle Scoot Dishe. Same model as Kliff but made in a different factory. I like it and for the money it's a good deal.
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Post by dishe on May 28, 2009 10:29:53 GMT -5
So- only two people on this board have ever bought, touched, or even have remote opinions about Eagle scooters? Particularly ones from GSMW? If you don't trust them, don't buy from them. Problem solved. You know what they say about folks who ASSUME.... I never said I don't trust them. I'm actually particularly excited, GSMW seems like one of the best deals going, but I've been burned by over-enthusiasm before. I'm scared to go into this head-over-heels, as I tend to do in this situation. Is it so wrong that I wanted to hear more opinions? Most people in this board have an opinion of some kind or another (There was no shortage when I was discussing SunL over 2 years ago). I have an Eagle Scoot Dishe. Same model as Kliff but made in a different factory. I like it and for the money it's a good deal. Thanks rocketdog. That's odd that its made in a different factory if its the same model, though. I was under the impression that Eagle specs their scooters with the manufacturer instead of shopping around for the lowest bidder like other scoot companies do... who makes yours?
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Post by avtech on May 31, 2009 0:54:58 GMT -5
Well, I am a total newb here and I was also swayed by Kliff's postings. I took the plunge and on 05/21/09 I ordered TWO Eagle Carino 150's from GSMW. I received an email the next day with a tracking number and a link to a trucking company. It also stated "It should only take 4 to 6 Business Days (Mon. - Fri., excluding holidays) for your shipment to be entered into their tracking system. "
Upon checking the trucking company's web site all I get so far when I enter the tracking number is a message stating "Invalid Pro Number. Please check and try again." I guess I have a couple more days to wait though before I will call anyone as June 2nd will be the sixth day after receiving the email.
I will keep you up to date on my experience as I have been looking for anyone else talking about this topic as well and am a little concerned that I can't find anything reguarding these scooters anywhere. I mean its like they don't even exist. I hope they do as GSMW now has my money. I am still very enthusiastic but it is a little unnerving giving out that much money to a company for a product that hardly anyone is talking about.
Hoping for the best... Charles
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Post by kz1000st on May 31, 2009 6:49:41 GMT -5
Don't play around. Call John the Customer Service Guy. You've been waiting too long. I'm sure he'll have all the info you need. Dial the 888-400-3253 number and ask for John. Tell him Jimmy or kliff from Scootdawg sent you and he'll jump into action.
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Post by avtech on May 31, 2009 22:23:36 GMT -5
You guys are right, I'll call John first thing in the morning on Monday. I just didn't want to turn into the annoying impatient customer that everyone hates. Even though I am very anxious to see my new scoots. I am searching for an outline of what to do when they show up so I will have a plan and am not just standing there in shock when the driver is unloading them. How long can I expect to keep the driver there as I inspect for damages. What the best way to handle receiving new scooters. As I said I am a total newb and I am trying to read as much as I can online but lately my schedule isn't permitting alot of time for this. Any thoughts are appreciated.
Charles
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Post by dishe on Jun 1, 2009 11:35:30 GMT -5
Hey guys, I AM still here.
I've been really busy and was away for a couple of days back there. I might be going away again later this week or next week, so I haven't ordered anything yet.
I do think that I'll go with John and GSMW. However, now that avtech has ordered from them, I'm curious to see how his experience pans out... Any updates?
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Post by avtech on Jun 1, 2009 12:35:48 GMT -5
I called three times so far this morning. The first two times John was helping other customers and this last time he was out for lunch. I will keep trying to get a hold of him and report back later tonight.
Charles
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Post by kz1000st on Jun 1, 2009 14:40:41 GMT -5
Check your PM, the scooters have been in Chicago for five days. It seems there's been a failure to communicate.
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Post by avtech on Jun 1, 2009 16:57:52 GMT -5
;D
Well, as it turns out, my scooters HAVE been waiting to be delivered since the 27th! It was all my fault too! I gave GSMW my home phone number when I placed my order and somehow the ringer got turned off. They have been calling and calling trying to set up a time to deliver and I never got the message. If only I had given them my cell #. I even received a card in the mail today from the shipping company dated the 28th stating that my scooters were in town waiting to be delivered or picked up. However the tracking number on this card didn't match the one emailed to me earlier which would explain the "error" messages I would get when trying to track the shipment online. Even still, I take all the blame because I gave them my home number and I did verify that the ringer WAS turned off somehow. They are going to deliver them tomorrow! I can't wait.
I am hoping there isn't any shipping damage. I am sure going to be busy preparing for the PDI now. Do the scooters come with manuals? I'm going to have to start a new thread.
Charles
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