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Post by Fokus on Feb 20, 2011 8:41:48 GMT -5
Never known of gasoline coming to a boiling point on any water cooled engine, also owned and rode the 2T 750 Kawasaki for several years, on a 100+ degree day at times running 60MPH+ it was wise to pull over have a soda and let it cool some.
Own a 41 John Deere 2cyl dozer from WWII use and era, water cooled with no water pump, even the Army engineers knew then that with just a little water they would run better and cooler especially in the jungles and places they used them for quick air strip landings.
Air will never out perform or out last water cooled if it would they wouldn't add the bling to the vehicles we drive today, would just save the cost. ;D
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Post by Bluefront on Feb 20, 2011 8:52:00 GMT -5
The added cost of liquid-cooling is just passed along to the buyer.....with the hope that the water-cooling/bling will increase sales. Reliability......a fighter aircraft used to be air-cooled in the early days. When they went to liquid-cooling, those planes could be brought down with even minor damage to the system......the same damage that left the air-cooled engines operational. So much for reliability.... I saw a new Kawasaki street cruiser last summer.....it was liquid-cooled, with a radiator quite visible up front. But the engine still had cooling fins all over.....disguising it to look like a vintage air-cooled bike. Air-cooling turned into bling?
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Post by Fokus on Feb 20, 2011 9:00:13 GMT -5
The air cooled VW engines mentioned of the past, drove a Beetle for years, hot summer day, stopped many a time with fuel pump vapor lock due to heat, air plane engines have a pretty good sourse of air at the speeds they fly in and at the altitudes the air is much cooler thus it's not as much of an issue, also a pilot and fly some.
Also aircraft engines go through total break down and rebuild after so many flying hours not a good apples for apples comparision. No such rules exist for land vehicles.
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Post by Bluefront on Feb 20, 2011 9:14:01 GMT -5
One more thing.....cost. An air-cooled scoot like my Xingyue can be had for around $1200. The Honda version of this same 16" wheel scoot (EFI/liquid-cooled) goes for $4500+ at the dealer. The Honda badge and the EFI/liquid-cooling are to blame. The result.....very few of the Hondas make it to the street, despite the Honda reputation for reliability. The first time I road my Xingyue to the local Honda dealer, several employees came out to investigate (thought it was a Honda)......they had never sold one of those expensive scoots.
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Post by Fokus on Feb 20, 2011 10:28:57 GMT -5
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Post by benellibob on Feb 20, 2011 11:02:31 GMT -5
i think you missed the part where he said this: What I've shown here are easy fixes.....I haven't had any problems in 95/100 degree temps thus far, and I don't want any. i think he's more worried about fuel temps and vapor lock since there is no cooling system or protection for the fuel lines.
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Post by Bluefront on Feb 20, 2011 11:18:41 GMT -5
I have to laugh at all these online sites.....the specs are all over the board. About the only thing they got right on that ITA-150....the air-cooling. Really though.....a BMS Pathfinder 150 (same as an ITA-150) can be had new/delivered for around $1200. That means you can buy at least three/four online, for the price of one Honda from a local dealer.
I'm willing to bet the Honda will have the same sort of troubles that all other Chinese scoots suffer. After all.....that Honda is probably assembled in China, using mostly Chinese parts.
And I have to laugh at this water-cooling thing......Many computer-kids have liquid-cooling for their over-clocked game computers. And they use the same arguments as I see here.....but they also suffer the same problems. Almost all of them suffer needless liquid-cooling problems....the radiators leak, the pumps fail, the fittings leak, and they still need fans for the radiator. For what....to gain a few MHZ (horse-power). ;D
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Post by kz1000st on Feb 20, 2011 13:18:54 GMT -5
Gotcha this time. CF Moto is running a sale www.scootersonly.netI'll see your Xinyue and raise you one E-Charm for $200 less and have dealer backing for parts and labor.
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Post by Fokus on Feb 20, 2011 13:24:36 GMT -5
I have to laugh at someone who wants to compare a "cheap" chinese scooter to a Honda claiming that it'll last as long because it's air cooled, trying to compare an airplane engine to a land engine, says that the air cooled systems on these scooters are OK then put's up cooling fan mods and then says they get hot enough to boil the gas in the carb? Now that's funny!
As one just recently posted things advance, change and sounds like you meet his idea of one who stands up and shakes his fist and says the old is better than the new and we don't move forward. If that's the case why are you always doing something to your scooter?
What did you gain by adding any cooling to an already good system?
Yes cooling systems can have failures, so if that's the case why don't you go get one of the old VW "air cooled" beetles of yester year? Less things to break and fail? Be sure to keep a cold drink with you on one of those summer days when the fuel pump quits due to vapor lock while you're waiting for it to "cool off"
Seems even VW moved on today's old throw back beetles all water cooled.
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Post by larry001964 on Feb 20, 2011 13:56:33 GMT -5
Hi Fokus I've never had a problem with air cooled engines, My car and truck have left me sitting far more times than my motorcycle or scooter, and i drove the Motorcycle, and now scooter, far more miles than the cars or truck. My car is reserved for conditions when it's too dangerous or if I'm carrying kids anything that exceeds the capacity of my scooter.
I only compared the US Navy reasons for using air cooled radial engines over liquid cooled engines. The Navy's reasoning at the time was Air Cooled radial engines were more reliable because of the simplicity ( lack of a cooling system ), could take far more damage and make it home, ( lack of a cooling system ),weight, maintenance and space savings. Liquid cooled aircraft burned less fuel than air cooled, but the safety benefits of air cooled Radial engines over water outweighs all other compelling reasons for liquid cooled and it stayed that way until the jet engines development and reliability was further along.
Yes Aircraft have engines adhere to far more stringent rules than ground engines, hours of operation before overhaul, definitely higher airflow speeds, aviation fuel is different, there's no comparison on that i agree, I used to fly so i know what your saying.
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Post by Fokus on Feb 20, 2011 14:12:03 GMT -5
Thanks Larry and as a flyer I also know what you're saying on these engines and as you so nicely stated there are good reasons for air cooled aircraft engines but for sure like we also said they can't be compared apples for apples against land type engines for all the reasons you stated. They due to obvious reasons are inspected and routinely checked for any possible problems and are taken apart and strictly inspected after so many flying hours and once an engine reaches a certain amount of hours it's trashed even if it's still in good working order. But air cooled will over time for a lot of things will slowly drift away, heck they even make water cooled riding lawn mowers now, this is a nice buy built in 1998: www.fastline.com/v100/1998-John-Deere-lx188-Heartland-Farm-and-Lawn-HIGGINSVILLE-MO-equipment-detail-31f6142c-1729-4b03-97cc-06fbd4af24a4.aspxJust wonder if it would still be around with original air cooled engine? But in a comparison Larry how many miles do you drive your car or truck compared to your motorcycle?
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Post by larry001964 on Feb 20, 2011 14:47:22 GMT -5
Thanks Larry and as a flyer I also know what you're saying on these engines and as you so nicely stated there are good reasons for air cooled aircraft engines but for sure like we also said they can't be compared apples for apples against land type engines for all the reasons you stated. They due to obvious reasons are inspected and routinely checked for any possible problems and are taken apart and strictly inspected after so many flying hours and once an engine reaches a certain amount of hours it's trashed even if it's still in good working order. But air cooled will over time for a lot of things will slowly drift away, heck they even make water cooled riding lawn mowers now, this is a nice buy built in 1998: www.fastline.com/v100/1998-John-Deere-lx188-Heartland-Farm-and-Lawn-HIGGINSVILLE-MO-equipment-detail-31f6142c-1729-4b03-97cc-06fbd4af24a4.aspxJust wonder if it would still be around with original air cooled engine? But in a comparison Larry how many miles do you drive your car or truck compared to your motorcycle? I have my doubts it would still be air cooled, now days it's more about fuel consumption than anything else. Going Green. I watched my dads 56 Chevy vapor lock, his 1946 wheelie jeep vapor locked and a Cadillac he owned.. I have a 92 Pontiac Grand am, V6 3.1 engine and it over heated a lot when i got it, the relay that tells the radiator fan to come on went out, I replaced it, two months later it went out again, so I just direct wired the fan to a 30 amp fuse. now the fan comes on when I turn on the key, but it don't over heat.. As for how many miles do i drive the scooter over the car ? My kids are grown now so it's just me now, I'm trying to save the money needed to bring my wife home, and lost my job in Fulton, I moved to Fort Wayne to find a job, I left my car in Fulton at my mom's. Ive driven the scooter exclusively here. Before that I owned a KZ 550 that I turned over 3 1/2 before it finally died, I could have fixed it but the expense would have been equal to a new motorcycle or scooter so I just sold it. So to answer your question i probably put 5000 miles on a motorcycle or scooter to every 1 mile on my car. I own a car only really for the occasions the scooter or car is impracticable. I even posted a mod I did to power my heated gloves from the scooter. So I could drive all winter long.. And this summer ill use that mod to power a radio LOL.
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Post by kz1000st on Feb 20, 2011 15:18:16 GMT -5
I only compared the US Navy reasons for using air cooled radial engines over liquid cooled engines. The Navy's reasoning at the time was Air Cooled radial engines were more reliable because of the simplicity ( lack of a cooling system ), could take far more damage and make it home, ( lack of a cooling system ),weight, maintenance and space savings.
The Navy also had to launch airplanes from carriers with limited flight deck length. The Air Corps (later Air Force) didn't have those limitations. P-40s and P-38s were liquid cooled from the beginning and while the P-38 wasn't the most reliable of planes it shot down more Japanese aircraft than any other plane during the Second World War. It was Richard Bong's (40 enemy shot down) weapon of choice. The P-51 Mustang, probably the most deadly fighter of World War II, was liquid cooled and could sustain quite a bit of damage before tumbling to earth.
I'm not a fan of liquid cooling but in an all day ride I'd take a CF Moto E-Charm over even a Kymco People S 150.
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Post by larry001964 on Feb 20, 2011 16:01:17 GMT -5
I only compared the US Navy reasons for using air cooled radial engines over liquid cooled engines. The Navy's reasoning at the time was Air Cooled radial engines were more reliable because of the simplicity ( lack of a cooling system ), could take far more damage and make it home, ( lack of a cooling system ),weight, maintenance and space savings.The Navy also had to launch airplanes from carriers with limited flight deck length. The Air Corps (later Air Force) didn't have those limitations. P-40s and P-38s were liquid cooled from the beginning and while the P-38 wasn't the most reliable of planes it shot down more Japanese aircraft than any other plane during the Second World War. It was Richard Bong's (80 enemy shot down) weapon of choice. The P-51 Mustang, probably the most deadly fighter of World War II, was liquid cooled and could sustain quite a bit of damage before tumbling to earth. I'm not a fan of liquid cooling but in an all day ride I'd take a CF Moto E-Charm over even a Kymco People S 150. Well my preference has always been the F4U-4 Corsair, Id take that. The P-38 had a kill ratio 4:1 The P-51 had a kill ratio of 11:1 The F4U Corsair had a kill ratio of 11:1 The P-47 had a kill ratio of 12:1 Maybe it just boils down to personal preference, All of my air cooled engines have been more dependable for me than any liquid cooled. Airplane, car, motorcycle, or scooter.. Ill stick with them.
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Post by Fokus on Feb 20, 2011 16:36:22 GMT -5
Very well said Larry and it's easy to say one can build a case for just about every type of engine and I certainly appreciate your situation as far as why and how much you ride versus drive, know what's it's like been there even to the point of my only transportation was my "two" feet! LOL
Also been there with some of the vehicles you mentioned a lot of the "old" ones had engineering flaws such as poor water pumps, radiators too small, etc. the old Ford flat heads were very touchy, do the wrong thing with putting in water and bang, cracked block! But they went forward and have improved and my basis of argument on these vehicles is simple, if they were better they would have advanced and would still be here.
Remeber Chevrolet's venture with the Corvair? They made this vehicle in evcerything from a 2-door convertible to a small van, if you have one in good shape now they are collectors items but the air cooled engine was a total failure.
They tried their best to duplicate the air cooled VW in success and failed miserably. My dad had one and we used to say when he pulled up to the gas station "hey fill her up with oil and check the gas!" They were a total piece of junk engine wise, ran hot and used/leaked oil.
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Post by larry001964 on Feb 20, 2011 16:48:30 GMT -5
Very well said Larry and it's easy to say one can build a case for just about every type of engine and I certainly appreciate your situation as far as why and how much you ride versus drive, know what's it's like been there even to the point of my only transportation was my "two" feet! LOL Also been there with some of the vehicles you mentioned a lot of the "old" ones had engineering flaws such as poor water pumps, radiators too small, etc. the old Ford flat heads were very touchy, do the wrong thing with putting in water and bang, cracked block! But they went forward and have improved and my basis of argument on these vehicles is simple, if they were better they would have advanced and would still be here. Remeber Chevrolet's venture with the Corvair? They made this vehicle in evcerything from a 2-door convertible to a small van, if you have one in good shape now they are collectors items but the air cooled engine was a total failure. They tried their best to duplicate the air cooled VW in success and failed miserably. My dad had one and we used to say when he pulled up to the gas station "hey fill her up with oil and check the gas!" They were a total piece of junk engine wise, ran hot and used/leaked oil. Yep and that darn fan belt was a pain, always breaking or one of the two pulleys going out, Ohhhh yea I remember that, Good looking car though, unstable as heck over 50 LOL My Goodness I had forgotten that one.
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Post by benellibob on Feb 20, 2011 17:23:07 GMT -5
if air cooling wasnt good enough then i wouldnt think they would use it on tanks. they did. it works. water cooling works too. so why do we have to argue about it? it seems the only thing wrong with water cooled scooters is bad corroding coolant and poor design. the only thing wrong with air cooled scooters is packing everything in a tight little space. both have workarounds. who cares? lets just GO RIDE!
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Post by SylvreKat on Feb 20, 2011 17:35:57 GMT -5
First, I had to laugh at the example of a liquid-cooled airplane getting shot and going down easier than the air-cooled. Honestly, if someone's shooting at my scooter, I don't care if it's air- or liquid- or even iceberg-cooled. I'm nowhere near it. It's going down all alone.
As for my personal choice of fighter, it's the F-15. Dunno' why, I fell in love the first time I saw a picture. I'd give anything for a ride. I saw a Generation Flight with an Eagle and a Mustang. You could hear the Mustang's engine maxed out, while the Eagle was almost vertical trying to not stall while staying slow enough to remain by the Mustang's side.
Say, if we're selling Eagles to other countries, surely I've paid enough taxes to claim an old stripped-down one for myself--right?
>'Kat
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Post by Fokus on Feb 20, 2011 17:50:50 GMT -5
Good one Bob but really a "gas turbine" tank engine? Now that's apples and prunes! LOL
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Post by benellibob on Feb 20, 2011 18:55:57 GMT -5
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Post by benellibob on Feb 20, 2011 19:06:37 GMT -5
m60 tank was an updated version of the patton tank. the engine was changed to a Continental V-12 750 hp air-cooled, twin-turbocharged diesel engine, extending operational range to over 300 miles (480 km) while reducing both refueling and servicing.
hmmmm.... kinda kills that dunnit?
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Post by oscar on Feb 20, 2011 19:21:25 GMT -5
Gasoline tanks are explosive which made the Sherman the Ronson lighter. "Lights 1st time everytime!" The Germans couldn't believe America would put such a poor design on the battlefield.
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Post by Fokus on Feb 20, 2011 23:03:35 GMT -5
The world's baddest tank has a Gas turbine engine 1500 HP: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M1_TankGeneral Dynamics ... AGT-1500 turbine engine Power Rating: 1500 HP
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Post by oscar on Feb 20, 2011 23:50:07 GMT -5
Normally powered by JP-8 jet fuel but can burn gasoline. Absolutely though the Germans might dispute that. Their Leopard II might provide some competition.
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Post by Bluefront on Feb 21, 2011 5:19:53 GMT -5
Back to the water/air thing with scooters......Anything over about 200cc and you'll be getting a water-cooled engine in a scooter these days, whether you want one or not.
But you still have a choice of an air-cooled 4T smaller engine......which fits right in the scheme of things. It's a cheap, reliable choice for a scooter....a choice that can be (relatively) easily serviced and maintained. The countless millions of small air-cooled scooters all over the world attest to that. By contrast....a small liquid-cooled engine in a scooter is a (relative) rarity.
Read over the posts on this forum.....anybody having problems with the air-cooling on his scoot? Very few it seems......you'll have problems if you damage and remove the engine shrouds. That's about it. The fan is simple....attached directly to the engine. There are no extra belts or pulleys, and nothing electrical involved with the stock air-cooling.
Contrast that to a liquid-cooled scooter engine......with a long list of related hardware that can fail and leave you stranded/pushing. As a simple. inexpensive means of transportation, an air-cooled engine in a scooter or cycle, is hard to beat.
Simplicity equals reliability....everything else being equal. Fewer parts equals fewer pieces to break. Most people buy scooters as an inexpensive way to get around town....maybe have a little fun doing so. The air-cooled (cheaper) scooter can do that job quite easily.
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Post by kz1000st on Feb 21, 2011 18:52:36 GMT -5
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