hydrogen power on a scooter ? « Thread Started on Jul 25, 2011, 10:52am »
I was on Youtube looking at scooter videos lots of information as well as people having fun on their toys . Here is link to hydrogen scooter http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HJtIYbM4HQA and here is their website http://www.hydrohybrids.net/blog/hydrogen-scooter-performace-kit/ It seems using distilled water not tab and baking soda you capture hydrogen from the mixture to compliment gasoline . It claims more power , mpg and cooler temps . Im gonna test on a lawnmower and see what happens and repost my results
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Re: hydrogen power on a scooter ? « Reply #3 on Jul 25, 2011, 6:26pm »
A few of us have *thought* about doing it. D-cat had a working system once.
The HHO "systems" for sale are scams.
HHO *does* work... it's overall benefit is still not clear. H2 and O2 ARE produced. It takes electricity and some expensive parts, as well as a bit of maintenance to keep the system running. Whether the net effect is worth it is arguable. You do get a bit of power. Whether that is worth the cost and upkeep, and whether the NET engergy produced is greater is still up in the air. (It cannot create engergy, it just unlocks the energy of unburned gasoline)
Joined: Apr 2011 Gender: Male Posts: 547 Location: Mesa, AZ
Re: hydrogen power on a scooter ? « Reply #4 on Jul 26, 2011, 9:27am »
I personally have had a simple bucket with aluminum plates in it and ended up making a crappy van get 17MPG instead of the 12 we were getting before. it was an addition to the fuel system not a ful replacement. I was thinking about trying how it would work out in the scoot. the "trunk" under the seat gets pretty hot, the hotter the water the more you end up getting to separate in the same time ( maybe its just the steam making the engine run better tho haha) and i really should try this some time soon.. good little project!
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Joined: May 2010 Gender: Male Posts: 2,532 Location: Anywhere between 03820 & 04076
Re: hydrogen power on a scooter ? « Reply #5 on Jul 26, 2011, 9:43pm »
Had? It still works... I just don't drive that car anymore because I can't afford the new set of rotors it needs all around.
The problem really is that stainless steel is not good enough, any grade. Electrolysis will erode the electrodes and if replacing elements every other month wasn't annoying enough, one of the by-products of the reaction is chromium... hazmat (remember Erin Brockovich?). If I had access to Titanium plates or wire, I'd still be making these things, and you bet your @55 I'd be using it on the scooter.
True it does not provide any additional energy to the mix as there is generation loss equal if not a tad greater than the gain. It does not replace gasoline (those systems are a scam), it merely supplements it and it doesn't take too much to be effective. What it does do is ignite much faster than gasoline alone, it's like turning the whole cylinder into a spark plug. At the same time, HHO actually implodes back into water, so it creates a vacuum while still in the compression stroke (not literally but it's lowering the engine's effort at the end of compression after the flame ignition has begun). Then the fuel explodes admittedly a bit earlier than the ideal timing due to the HHO's increased flame front speed but still while giving plenty of oomph to torque down on the piston with. The result is a smoother running engine and a much more complete burn that is more efficient and leaner, yet still cooler. So yes, it doesn't add any energy itself, it just allows less of the gasoline's energy to be wasted. I have done it to 3 vehicles and it worked beautifully on two of them (about 30% efficiency gain), no measurable difference on the third. Oh, and with that extra water in the exhaust, you'll find yourself needing a stainless exhaust soon too.
The lean part is why it doesn't work on modern cars (post 1996) period; the computer reads the exhaust as a lean condition and feeds/wastes more gas. It only works on carbureted vehicles or, in the case of my Subaru, vehicles in which the computer is older than 1996 and still geared toward max efficiency, or the O2 sensor doesn't work (or is fake). Yes you can trick out the MAP sensors too but then you're no longer talking simple and removable fixes; going too far could damage the engine, and you can bet money on the warranty being invalidated.
Bikes IMO are absolutely perfect for these kind of kits as they are carbureted engines and the stators are at full tilt all the time anyway, so there wouldn't be any real generation loss. "Big Guy" Richard on this forum last year confirmed that from his own experiments with it there was measurable gain both in mileage and top speed. Like I said though, I will not make any more unless I get my hands on some workable titanium. One of the reasons for riding a scooter in the first place is to reduce our transportation impact on the environment; creating hazmat in the pursuit of economy seems counterintuitive.
Joined: Jul 2010 Gender: Male Posts: 5,894 Location: Mainely Scooters
Re: hydrogen power on a scooter ? « Reply #6 on Jul 26, 2011, 10:31pm »
Now you got me thinking again. At the beginning of the summer when I was dreaming about setting up my rental shop I thought I would do more things to make the scooters environmentally friendly. Now doing something that will keep the scooters legal as 49.5cc's yet give more power for these darn hills... something I should think about.
Maybe after I get a brand new scooter working again that a rentee blew the engine on (200 miles ).
water does not cause the early exhaust failure. there is always water in exhaust gas. Nitrogen oxides are formed with lean mixes. it only takes a small amount of NOx to accelerate rusting.
You always pay for the free ride... down the road.
Entropy always takes her cut, in every energy conversion.
Computer tech and redneck mechanic. :) skype: dcatoffm
Joined: May 2010 Gender: Male Posts: 2,532 Location: Anywhere between 03820 & 04076
Re: hydrogen power on a scooter ? « Reply #8 on Jul 27, 2011, 8:54am »
I'm not sure I buy Hydrogen Embrittlement as what's going on but I will acknowledge it as a possibility:
Quote:
Steel with an ultimate tensile strength of less than 1000 MPa or hardness of less than 30 HRC are not generally considered susceptible to hydrogen embrittlement. Jewett et al. reports the results of tensile tests carried out on several structural metals under high-pressure molecular hydrogen environment. These tests have shown that austenitic stainless steels, aluminum (including alloys), copper (including alloys, e.g. beryllium copper) are not susceptible to hydrogen embrittlement along with few other metals.
Even so, whatever the cause, the point being is that the stock pipes and muffler do not last very long.
Joined: May 2011 Gender: Male Posts: 241 Location: Sarasota, Florida
Re: hydrogen power on a scooter ? « Reply #9 on Jul 27, 2011, 9:52am »
I think the exhaust rust is due to increased NOx production.
embrittlement is a potential problem in gasoline engines. it affects hardened steel and some aluminum alloys.
H2 gas also readily diffuses thru most all plastic materials.
this leads to unknown risk in terms of unexpected failure of materials such as valves, valve seats and rings, as well as pistons. With the potential to reach other components such as cylinder head bolts in close proximity to the gaseous H2. gasket material is not a significant barrier to H2 gas.
because H2 gas has not been widely used in conventional gasoline engines, this risk has never been fully evaluated.
It does, however, remain a potential problem, at this time.
the increased rust rate in the exhaust is due to the NOx components. Part of NOx is NO2. NO2 + H2O = HNO3... nitric acid.
hot nitric acid even in very very small concentrations rusts steel components quickly.
H2 gas is antiknock with a RON of greater than 130... so it is permits lean mix combustion with more NOx production without knock and preignition detonation.
It is not as simple as >>> add a little H2 and obtain a more efficient and powerful engine.
Joined: May 2011 Gender: Male Posts: 241 Location: Sarasota, Florida
Re: hydrogen power on a scooter ? « Reply #13 on Jul 28, 2011, 5:03am »
propane does not seem to have as much effect as H2 in reducing knock for lean AF mixes.
RON for propane=112 RON for H2=greater than 130
H2 as the smallest gas molecule, has the highest diffusion rate. it mixes with a cylinder charge with no effort.
propane will run engines just fine and has been used as a fuel for many years. there is no way, however, to generate just a little propane. you need a pressure tank and regulator.
Joined: Apr 2011 Gender: Male Posts: 226 Location: Marietta, Ga
Re: hydrogen power on a scooter ? « Reply #15 on Aug 6, 2011, 7:01am »
I hate to be the ball buster. These hho systems are cool, but the damage they will cause is severe. I'm an automotive technician as well as a scooter enthusiast. And I have seen these systems on cars before, and even thought about the scoot. What happens is that even though this may be a cool idea and it may work to some extent. The hho gases created are actually VERY corrosive! I have personally seen a couple of long term used hho systems that have actually eaten through the aluminum throttle bodys on the cars, completely ruining them. I would be very cautious when using this on a scoot. It could possibly ruin the engine....
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Re: hydrogen power on a scooter ? « Reply #18 on Sept 1, 2011, 12:13pm »
They do have a sports car now that uses hydrogen for improved fuel consumption. Can't remember what it's called, but I'm sure it wouldn't be too hard to find on google. Anyway, I had a system on my 150 scoot for a while, it worked real good for the improved idle. Don't know about power, didn't seem to do much, but it died an explosive death...going up a steep gravel road and heard a big bang, my box on the back opened up, which it would do sometimes if I hit a real big pothole on that road. Got to the top to look and the top blew off the lexan container the generator was built in, which blew the top of the box open. I want to rebuild it someday, but do it right this time, so it won't blow up on me.
Re: hydrogen power on a scooter ? « Reply #19 on Sept 12, 2011, 11:56pm »
I have done it for my old car. Got it to make lots of bubbles and heat and rust (despite everything is stainless). I even did the trick of adding an extension socket for the oxygen sensor in an attempt to fool the computer...
My conclusion: totally not worth it. There is no way to generate enough hydrogen to make any defference consider how much air a car engine sucks in at thousands RPM. It will take so much current that the alternator either can't supply or end up creating so much drag and eats up more power from the engine.
Re: hydrogen power on a scooter ? « Reply #20 on Sept 19, 2011, 2:45am »
Nox emissions are due to heat. A lean burn is a hot burn. A good deal of the gasoline in your average internal combustion engine isn't burned, its just there to absorb heat (quench). This quenching can be done with water or water/alcohol mist. Water injection is a much more practical way to increase gas mileage than electrolysis of water. Mileage can usually be nearly doubled with proper tuning.
Nox emissions are due to heat. A lean burn is a hot burn. A good deal of the gasoline in your average internal combustion engine isn't burned, its just there to absorb heat (quench). This quenching can be done with water or water/alcohol mist. Water injection is a much more practical way to increase gas mileage than electrolysis of water. Mileage can usually be nearly doubled with proper tuning.
Give it a shot, hopefully you can make it work. In theory these things work but in reality all have failed. We tried water injection in one of our dragsters a long time ago for fun. So far, nothing beats a well tuned engine with plain gas.
Nox emissions are due to heat. A lean burn is a hot burn. A good deal of the gasoline in your average internal combustion engine isn't burned, its just there to absorb heat (quench). This quenching can be done with water or water/alcohol mist. Water injection is a much more practical way to increase gas mileage than electrolysis of water. Mileage can usually be nearly doubled with proper tuning.
Give it a shot, hopefully you can make it work. In theory these things work but in reality all have failed. We tried water injection in one of our dragsters a long time ago for fun. So far, nothing beats a well tuned engine with plain gas.
I beg to differ. Some quick googling will show many people that have used it to save gas, not to mention all the turbocharged vehicles out there that would fly apart it if weren't for the anti-knock effects of water injection.
Joined: Jul 2011 Gender: Male Posts: 1,564 Location: Colorado
Re: hydrogen power on a scooter ? « Reply #24 on Sept 20, 2011, 8:59am »
Zeke, an honest difference of opinion is healthy. Thanks for not getting all upset and insulting.
I have used water injection long before Google existed. I have read many sites that try it. I think its fascinating. I would love to see one working on a scooter.
My last Subaru was turbo charged and the "water injection" actually sprayed a mist on the innercooler. It doesnt go inside the engine. It is used to cool the air going into the turbo. Can you tell me a car that comes with water injection in the fuel delivery system? I would like to read about it.
Joined: Jul 2010 Gender: Male Posts: 5,894 Location: Mainely Scooters
Re: hydrogen power on a scooter ? « Reply #25 on Sept 20, 2011, 12:21pm »
Water injection works. It works as a radiator cooling down the intake charge. It's ONLY beneficial on forced induction motors. Alcohol injection works as well. It does give a bit more burnable fuel but it's only effective on forced induction systems as well. N/A engines cannot atomize the water or the alcohol effectively, nor do they generally have the temperature requirement for a 20 degree intake charge cooling.
They do NOT give noticeably better gas mileage. They WILL damage your engine long term. Trust me on that. They are good for the track. I believe a high end turbo 4 cylinder (Evo?) came from the factory with a water injection system. It worked but you HAD to monitor the water level or you could FRY your engine in 1/2 second if the water ever ran out. The water also only lasted about a week or so before needing to be filled, with daily driving. It improved performance by cooling the engine down for a denser intake charge and cooling the block down as a result.
I built a water injection system, then an alcohol injection system for my supercharged Mustang. It worked great, lowered the IAT by over 20 degrees, until it toasted the rings by washing off the oil.
Zeke, an honest difference of opinion is healthy. Thanks for not getting all upset and insulting.
I have used water injection long before Google existed. I have read many sites that try it. I think its fascinating. I would love to see one working on a scooter.
My last Subaru was turbo charged and the "water injection" actually sprayed a mist on the innercooler. It doesnt go inside the engine. It is used to cool the air going into the turbo. Can you tell me a car that comes with water injection in the fuel delivery system? I would like to read about it.
No, I know of no vehicle that come with water injection. Afaik it is only an aftermarket add-on.
Water injection works. It works as a radiator cooling down the intake charge. It's ONLY beneficial on forced induction motors. Alcohol injection works as well. It does give a bit more burnable fuel but it's only effective on forced induction systems as well. N/A engines cannot atomize the water or the alcohol effectively, nor do they generally have the temperature requirement for a 20 degree intake charge cooling.
They do NOT give noticeably better gas mileage. They WILL damage your engine long term. Trust me on that. They are good for the track. I believe a high end turbo 4 cylinder (Evo?) came from the factory with a water injection system. It worked but you HAD to monitor the water level or you could FRY your engine in 1/2 second if the water ever ran out. The water also only lasted about a week or so before needing to be filled, with daily driving. It improved performance by cooling the engine down for a denser intake charge and cooling the block down as a result.
I built a water injection system, then an alcohol injection system for my supercharged Mustang. It worked great, lowered the IAT by over 20 degrees, until it toasted the rings by washing off the oil.
Greg
I don't think water injection is beneficial for only forced induction. The thing is you can't just throw on a water injection kit and expect higher mpg. You have to tune your car to run lean and use water for quenching instead of gas. Most people I've seen end up using about half water.
As far as toasted rings go, most people add a small amount of emulsified oil to their water or alcohol to keep things from getting too clean.
I'll admit I've never used it personally. I wanted to for years, but lived in a butthole apartment in the city all through college, and then lost my car in a flash flood between my junior and senior years.
Joined: Apr 2009 Gender: Male Posts: 1,906 Location: Belle Missouri
Re: hydrogen power on a scooter ? « Reply #27 on Sept 20, 2011, 8:19pm »
Hydrogen scooters is a terrible idea, sort of like a scooter running on air.. These scooters get great gas milage as it is, they are not a vehicle that gets 20 mpg.. They get 65 to 80 mpg.. Stick with gasoline until something is really proven to work..
Re: hydrogen power on a scooter ? « Reply #28 on Sept 29, 2011, 10:29pm »
I have seen cars that run on compressed air thats heated so it expands . The exhaust is cleaner than the air you breathe wow . They now have an engine that runs on any burnable fuel and air . It uses compressed air at low speeds then starts internal combustion engine . Their website is down . I also saw a hybrid scooter with electric motor that ran til 15mph then engaged the engine and got around 200 mpg .
Hydrogen is great clean fuel but is so unstable having a tank of it is almost like a mini nuke bomb . Thats why most extract hydrogen from water using reverse osmosis with water vapor as emission . Makes you wonder why we are still on petroleum fuels .
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