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Post by jamescell on Jul 29, 2009 19:31:22 GMT -5
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Post by harrywr2 on Jul 29, 2009 20:59:20 GMT -5
.45 volts is full perfect combustion. lower is leaner, higher is richer
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Post by jamescell on Jul 30, 2009 6:46:57 GMT -5
It welds on the exhaust pipe,closer to the head the better, the guage mounts where ever you want it to... I will have pics up soon.
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Post by jamescell on Jul 30, 2009 7:10:52 GMT -5
It's 18mm. There are a few guys on the totalruckus forum that have done this also, However they all paid $250 or more! I just burned up a piston and really don't want to leave things to chance. My plug always was a carmel brown, and it ran great. I am not sure that it did overheat, but now I can know for sure that my carb is tuned properly  |
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Post by jamescell on Jul 30, 2009 7:16:23 GMT -5
Not my bike, but it has a o2 sensor installed on it, right in front of the muffler.... 
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Post by jamescell on Jul 30, 2009 8:25:02 GMT -5
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Post by harrywr2 on Jul 30, 2009 10:22:32 GMT -5
It welds on the exhaust pipe,closer to the head the better, the guage mounts where ever you want it to... I will have pics up soon. The temp needs to be 600 degrees or hotter for the thing to work. So closer to the manifold is a definite must. |
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Post by jamescell on Aug 1, 2009 9:27:02 GMT -5
The part of the sensor that goes in the pipe is about 3/8"x 3/8" and has slots in it that alow air to pass. The hole I drilled in the pipe is less slightly larger, 7/16". I notice no loss of power at any throttle opening due to the o2 sensor. My pipe is 1" ID, I can't say weather or not it would affect a stock pipe but being round and having the slots through it I think it would not. You can always blank off the sensor bung and just use the sensor for tuning.
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Post by jamescell on Aug 1, 2009 11:34:03 GMT -5
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Post by jamescell on Aug 2, 2009 16:24:48 GMT -5
I have been using the meter for tuning and have found it to help a ton! With the plug read method I was using a 145main, it was so lean it wouldn't even register on the meter at over 1/2 throttle! I am now all the way up to a 165 main and the meter reads just above stoich. My power is way up and temps are way down! The trouble I have always had with the plug read method is that to do it right you have to be able to kill the motor and stop it from rotating at wot. The cvt makes it impossible to do while under load. Even 5 seconds of idle can ruin your plug read. I am super happy I did this, like I said my power is way up and temps are way down with a jet change that plug reads showed to be unnecessary.
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Post by Jake aka: Ventoscoot on Sept 3, 2009 23:18:10 GMT -5
I am SERIOUSLY liking this!!! Looking up parts now. How have you been using it for tuning? While under load, check guage, then back to the garage, and new jet, or can you do it all on the center stand. JRR, did you do this mod?
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Post by greg on Sept 8, 2009 18:03:52 GMT -5
i like this if i can scrounge up the cash im buying one! bothers me thinking my scoots not tuned perfectly! thanks for the tip!
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Post by chrish on Sept 13, 2009 22:50:57 GMT -5
Great idea, but that gauge is inaccurate, and is that sensor even a wideband? To really tune you need a wideband O2 sensor that will give much closer readings. Judging by the price I'd gas that's a narrowband O2 sensor. There is a reason the PLX, or AEM kits cost $250.
This is a good idea, and I could see how it could significantly aid in tuning. If it helped you tune, that's awesome & well worth the investment!
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Post by quicksilver on Sept 17, 2009 11:29:31 GMT -5
When I came across this idea, I thought is was great, still do however, I have been doing some research. As stated above, the best way to measure the Air/Fuel Ratio meter is to use the correct components. As I researched, I found that a standard O2 sensor is not very stable above and below the .45v range that would be considered a 14.7:1 perfect combustion. This is because an O2 sensor is considered a narrow band sensor. Again as mentioned above a wide band sensor is needed which becomes more stable across the whole range. To get a better idea of the difference between the two, read this article from CAR CRAFT Magazine. www.carcraft.com/techarticles/116_0402_innovate_air_fuel_ratio_meter/index.htmlIf you want to do it right you will need to spend 2 to 3 hundred dollars to get a proper A/F meter and sensor. Even after purchasing the parts, the display meter itself states that a wide band sensor is needed, which I'm currently looking into at this time. BTY- For those who do want to go this route with an O2 sensor, you should thing of using the forth light from the bottom as your target. While bench testing the meter to find where the meter would read with about .45 volts, I determined that each light would need .1v or 1mv to light each LED bar. I will try to keep you dawg's informed as I gather more information. |
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Post by nittany1 on Sept 27, 2009 11:17:11 GMT -5
I agree the best way to go about it would be to get one of the Innovative kits with wideband sensor, proper gauge, RS-232 interface, PC software, etc. Having that said that, some data is better than no data as far as A/F ratio is concerned, especially considering how much people spend to try to get past 50-60 mph with 49cc registered scoots.
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Post by sina3001 on Apr 29, 2010 12:41:55 GMT -5
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Post by Jake aka: Ventoscoot on Apr 29, 2010 15:54:28 GMT -5
would this mate up with the guage in the OP? if it would, I think I will finally take the plung and do this mod along with a new head.
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Post by sina3001 on Apr 29, 2010 16:55:50 GMT -5
No it would not. In order to use a wideband o2 sensor, you'd have to use a gauge designed for a wideband sensor. As stated here: www.ztechz.net/id12.html  The voltages between the two different types of sensors vary. Theoretically, if you could cut the output voltage of the wideband sensor by 1/5th, and scale it to the 0-1v scale, it MIGHT work with the old type of gauge. Even then, the lean/rich scale would seem reversed on the old type of gauge. |
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Post by sina3001 on Apr 29, 2010 17:14:07 GMT -5
Even better! Don't bother with the fancy gauges, instead use either a simple handheld digital voltmeter or if you want to have a display to view at all times, use one of these with the wideband sensor: www.fadfusion.com/selection.php?product_item_number=20082406706 Price: $19.99 (before shipping) Since the wideband sensors output voltages between 0-5v, a digital car voltage gauge I have linked above would work perfectly. Including shipping, both a sensor and digital voltage gauge would be around $70-$80, maybe even lower if you look around for better prices. This isn't a bad price to pay, instead of guessing what's going on inside your engine, treating the almighty spark plug as a crystal ball... "spaarrk plugg... *rubs spark plug* what is my air/fuel mixture... am I running lean?" After I get my scooter (hopefully next week, depending on the shipping company), I'll probably install this mod and see how it works out. |
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Post by sina3001 on Apr 29, 2010 17:23:57 GMT -5
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Post by Jake aka: Ventoscoot on May 3, 2010 10:28:20 GMT -5
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Post by sina3001 on May 3, 2010 23:17:40 GMT -5
You do bring up a good point, the previous posts stated that above or below the magic stoich mark, it's not very accurate, but we're aiming for the section of the scale that IS accurate. I may do the same thing and just go with the narrowband solution.
I researched the wideband option after I saw that the costs were what inhibited someone from trying it, so I looked for a cheaper way to implement a wideband sensor.
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Post by Jake aka: Ventoscoot on May 4, 2010 0:45:48 GMT -5
recieved email back from vendor today. that gauge has a narrow band sensor that comes with it. I am going to order it and install it in my custom exhaust Skyetone and I are building. report back later (probably a moth or so).
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Post by sina3001 on May 4, 2010 1:36:54 GMT -5
The only problem I see with that gauge is that the "optimum" range seems pretty vague. There are no number markings, or any markings indicating the middle, or ideal part of the "optimum" range.
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Post by Jake aka: Ventoscoot on May 4, 2010 17:02:22 GMT -5
If you look at the video of the product at the bottom of the listing, when it is powered up it has numbers 9-18 volts. It also allows you to program a top end and bottom end warning, as well as a number of other settings.
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Post by quicksilver on May 22, 2010 20:06:15 GMT -5
So I made a post above about going to a more expensive unit. Well I did it. Bought it last year and gave it a try, didn't get a chance to post it. It did tell me that I was idle was where it was suppose to be but lean coming onto throttle.
This spring, I did maintenance on the bike and upped the pilot jet one and manage to get the lean out. Now the thing is I found is at WOT, I run on the edge of lean. By the correct method of tuning, I should be running at 14.7 or less on the meter. A good point of target would be around 14 itself. However at WOT it is at 15. Not good. Although the bike runs as there is no running lean, it does. This can cause damage to the engine if I didn't catch it. My next thing is to install a one up on the main jet. Hopefully this will correct this issue.
I have also notice that I am still lean coming onto throttle but not noticeable without the help of the installed O2 sensor.
The funny this is that I read that many have upped their pilot and main jets quite a bit but with this meter method, I have not gone up but one jet on each so far. My opinion is that this expense spent now could save me much more in the long run.
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Post by Jake aka: Ventoscoot on May 23, 2010 0:35:48 GMT -5
do you have some pics to share?
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Post by Jake aka: Ventoscoot on May 31, 2010 20:39:56 GMT -5
OK, I did it!! I thought this would be VERY cool so.... My fellow ASSC Utah club member Skye (skytone, yes the one who built the chooter!) is an awsome welder and helped me by welding an adapter and bung onto the stainless Header. I still need to tune it, I can say I am running waaay rich and am expecting some speed gains when I lean it out. Here are some pics. Sorry not to many, I will answer any questions. The exhaust is my version of the lawnmower muffer mod with a fancy tip over it. (posting the link to the album because for whatever reason the IMG codes are not working) s699.photobucket.com/albums/vv353/ventoscoot/Air%20and%20Fuel%20Gauge%20and%20Custom%20Exhaust/I like the location of the gauge, jus tnot how it sits. I need to mod it so it will angle up so I can read it while I ride. I am also going to put in a volt meter on the oposite side of it just to balance it out in the looks department. |
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Post by quicksilver on Jun 1, 2010 19:43:03 GMT -5
Now did you opt for the narrow or wide band O2 sensor? I went for the wide band sensor and found that my 115 main jet was on the edge of running lean at WOT but ran a little richer at mid range. With that in mind, I upped the main to 118 and found that I ran too rich, in the mid to high 12 range as compared to high 13 to the 14.7 range that the 115 main gave me. By adjusting the needle down didn't help because it would make me run lean about 1/4 throttle. The only way I could get rid of it was to put the needle back to where it was to begin with. I also went back to my 115 main jet.
With the current set up, I have a 40 pilot jet, needle set with a washer and clip in the lowest position and a 115 main jet. I run slightly rich at idle, start to lean out at about 1/8 throttle, about 15 to 15.5 on the meter and starts to go rich again about 13 to 13.7 up until WOT. At that point anywhere between 13.7 to 14.7.
Now through research, a good target range would be about 13.7 as to provide enough fuel to maintain cooling without over flooding the engine or wasting fuel. The only thing I wish was that I had a full collection of carb parts, to try different combinations to dial it in. If I get in the mood, I might go one higher on the pilot jet and then adjust the needle to see how that works.
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Post by Jake aka: Ventoscoot on Jun 1, 2010 22:15:56 GMT -5
I went with the narrow band for a couple of reasons. part frankly was cost. The other, was because with as "low tech" as this is, I didn't see the need for the wide band. I don't have a computer controlled EFI system that can take advantage of the wideband info and adjust itself based on the info. I have not had enough time sinct installing it to get into tuning it yet, and I lost all of my jets. I do know that at idle, I am running waaaay rich so I need to down jet, prpbably to a 30 or so. I am running a 122 main right now and am probably running rich so will down jet. we will see. I am interested to see, and am glad to know at least that I haven't been running lean.
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