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Electric fuel pump install /w pictures « Thread Started on Aug 30, 2008, 8:21pm »
Scooter type: MC54-250B Fuel pump: Mr Gasket 42S electric micro fuel pump Fuel hose replacement size: 5 foot of 1/4" fuel hose Electrical wire: 5 feet of 16 gauge (red wire), fuel pump has short wires.
1. Before and after 2. Electrical hookup 3. Hoses used
Before and after pictures:: On the new pump, one end plugs into the fuel tank and the other end plugs directly into the carburetor, that simple. Being the old pump uses a vacuum hose, you'll need to plug that hose to prevent a vacuum leak.
Electrical hook-up:: I chose to use wire's under the dash board for power. The BROWN/BLACK (oddly enough) wires are hot when the ignition key is in the ON position, so I used the connector that holds them together. The first picture shows how I connected it (the red wire is the fuel pump). The second shows what it looked like after a wire-tie and the cover moved back over the wires.
Hoses:: Here is a picture of the difference on quality in hoses used. Hose on left is new and was made in the US. The hose on the right was original hose from the tank to the fuel filter.
I have yet to take her out for a spin, still torn down working on other things. But she started right up and didn't seem to have a lag in the throttle anymore. (Fixed a problem I didn't even know I had )
Hope this helped someone. Rubber side down, dawgs...
allengrota Great Big Guru Dawg Watch Dawg member is offline
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Re: Electric fuel pump install /w pictures « Reply #1 on Aug 30, 2008, 10:01pm »
Nice work. I used a Purolator on mine...just curious...I mounted mine like yours but it made a racket. Then I read the instructions, and found that I was supposed to mount it in a vertical position. Stinkin' instructions! It is a lot quieter now though.
What I found is that when it was mounted like yours (the way it looks right) it ran a lot to get fuel going when I first turned on the key. Now it doesn't do that either, and it's almost silent vs. the clack clack clack it used to make.
Commuting 60 miles per day at 72mpg! 2600 miles and running strong. Electric fuel pump, lighter weights, derestricted exhaust. His and hers Vegas cruisers...a Reflex and a Jonway YY250T
Joined: Jan 2007 Gender: Male Posts: 8,657 Location: Grapevine Texas
Re: Electric fuel pump install /w pictures « Reply #2 on Aug 31, 2008, 8:45am »
Many people probably base their decision on the messages and pics I posted here in this thread, starting at around page 6 with my vacuum and fuel pressure tests, and fuel pump install. http://scootdawg.proboards59.com/index.c....lay&thread=7135
2007 Roketa Fiji 150 2007 Roketa MC54-250B 1992 Harley Sportster 1200 ----------------------------------- "Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming -- WOW--What a ride!!!"
Karl Great Big Guru Dawg This mischievous member is offline
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Re: Electric fuel pump install /w pictures « Reply #3 on Aug 31, 2008, 10:13am »
Guys, enlighten me.
How does a fuel pump work on these scoots?
How does it know when to shut off?
Does it just fill the carb bowl and there's a sensor in there to shut it down?
Joined: Jan 2007 Gender: Male Posts: 8,657 Location: Grapevine Texas
Re: Electric fuel pump install /w pictures « Reply #4 on Aug 31, 2008, 10:57am »
The fuel pump runs all the time. The carb float and fuel cut off valve inside the float bowl governs the fuel level in the carb. I used a adjustable fuel pressure regulator on my scooter. I set it for 1.5psi, but 1psi is probably better. No sensors.
The vacuum operated fuel pump uses a diaphram to move back and forth (vibrates) and a couple of flapper valves to control the fuel direction flow. This type of pump works best on 2 cycle engines where they have a constant amount of pressures from the crankcase (vacuum and pressure). But on 4 cycle engines, it is minimal at best, as the faster the engine runs and the higher the load the less vacuum you get to operate the fuel pump. You can read about my tests from the link above.
2007 Roketa Fiji 150 2007 Roketa MC54-250B 1992 Harley Sportster 1200 ----------------------------------- "Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming -- WOW--What a ride!!!"
allengrota Great Big Guru Dawg Watch Dawg member is offline
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Re: Electric fuel pump install /w pictures « Reply #5 on Aug 31, 2008, 11:20am »
When the carb demands fuel, the pump runs. If the needle valve were to close and the pressure were to rise, the pump would stall or shut down via an internal pressure switch, like an rv pump (demand pump), but the reality is that they do run all the time that the scooter is running.
Commuting 60 miles per day at 72mpg! 2600 miles and running strong. Electric fuel pump, lighter weights, derestricted exhaust. His and hers Vegas cruisers...a Reflex and a Jonway YY250T
Never judge a dawg's pedigree by the ride they choose.
Joined: Jul 2008 Posts: 95 Location: Virginia Beach
Re: Electric fuel pump install /w pictures « Reply #6 on Sept 17, 2008, 9:37am »
Just an update:
After installing the pump, I had intermittent problems with idling and engine shutting off when coming off WOT. Being I had re-run my vacuum hoses and yanked out the charcoal canister, I thought it might have been a fuel mixture problem. I then unplugged a vacuum hose which seemed to make the problem worse. After reading a view posts on the carburettor float I decided to install a regulator, which I have install right before the carburettor for easy access and is set to 1psi. Now she's back to purring.
Joined: Jan 2007 Gender: Male Posts: 8,657 Location: Grapevine Texas
Re: Electric fuel pump install /w pictures « Reply #8 on Nov 24, 2008, 6:56am »
I used some "Copper Kote" gasket sealer. Some people used teflon tape to good effect too. These fittings and barbs use a pipe thread, which is a tapered thread design, so you need to tighten the fittings a little more than you would normally tighten them. Use two wrenches, one for the fitting and the other wrench for the item the fitting is going into.
Yes if you don't have other vacuum operated accessories on your scooter, there is only a vacuum line from the intake manifold to the carb.
One only needs about 1 to 1.5psi fuel pressure, so if you didn't get a riding lawnmower fuel pump that only puts out 1 to 1.5 psi then a fuel pressure regulator is a good idea.
For safety, a rollover switch in series with the 12vdc power line is a good idea. The rollover switch cuts off power or cuts off the ground should the scooter fall over for any reason. Slightly used rollover switches are easily found, as a lot of sport bike riders wreck out and their old rides get parted out.
2007 Roketa Fiji 150 2007 Roketa MC54-250B 1992 Harley Sportster 1200 ----------------------------------- "Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming -- WOW--What a ride!!!"
Joined: Jan 2007 Gender: Male Posts: 8,657 Location: Grapevine Texas
Re: Electric fuel pump install /w pictures « Reply #9 on Nov 24, 2008, 7:00am »
I had several people ask about pics of the fuel pump I installed on my scooter: That led me to go ahead and install the electric fuel pump with a pressure regulator, so i can set the fuel pressure. I adjusted it for 1.5 psi to match the highest fuel pressure I could get out of the OEM vacuum fuel pump. After testing and ensuring I didn't have any fuel leaks or seepage. I put everything back together.
I went for a 25 mile test ride, and the engine runs great with the electric fuel pump. Before it felt a little anemic and seemed to be a hair on the lean side as you rode along at certain speeds. Now it accelerates to 50mph like it used to accelerate to 40mph. I went up a hill where I could go 50mph into a mild headwind, and I gave it the throttle to hold 50mph up the hill too. It didn't start to stall or die, it just went right on up the hill. So the electric fuel pump is a success. it is like I gained more horsepower, but I didn't hop up the engine or add anything to it. That is so neat.
One final note, my scooter has a positive ground, not negative like we normally see. So you need to test the electric fuel pump's wires to see if the negative one is grounded to the metal case or not. My pump fortunately, has it's motor isolated from the metal case. So when you rig up your power wiring, triple check with a voltmeter the polarity and wire it accordingly. The electric motor does not like reversed polarity on it.
Size comparison:
Mikuni Df44 under test:
Well then, that leads me to installing a electric Fuel Pump, as shown here I have the pressure regulator attached to the fuel pump so that it forms a unit. I used a 1/8"NPT coupler and two right angle 1/8" NPT to 1/4" nipple fbrass fittings.
I needed to move the fuel pump and regulator farther forward, so I fabricated a crude mounting plate out of 0.10" thick scrap aluminum plate.
Here is the electric fuel pump and regulator installed and under test, so I can check fuel pressure and make any adjustments. IMPORTANT! You need to run the engine for a while and check frequently for any fuel seepage out of the fitting joints. They need to to be tightened into the units quite tightly. Once it doesn't leak, then don't tighten them any further.
Here is a pic of the Fuel Pressure set for 1.5psi. Which matches the OEM vacuum pump's best pressure at about 1800 RPM.
2007 Roketa Fiji 150 2007 Roketa MC54-250B 1992 Harley Sportster 1200 ----------------------------------- "Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming -- WOW--What a ride!!!"
Joined: Jan 2007 Gender: Male Posts: 8,657 Location: Grapevine Texas
Re: Electric fuel pump install /w pictures « Reply #10 on Nov 24, 2008, 7:02am »
Here is a short video clip of what the fuel pump does when the engine is running. You can see the fuel pressure start to drop when I rev up the engine.
I am somewhat surprised that no one has tested the fuel pressure on the OEM setups to see what they really have. My fuel pressure tests show the vacuum fuel pump behaving exactly as I had surmised earlier. So there are no surprises there. On a four cycle engine you don't really have good pressure pulses that a fuel pump can use like you do with a two cycle engine. Anyway on my engine, I measure about 1.25psi at idle and about 1.5psi at 1800 to 2000 rpm. From then on fuel pressure gets inexorably less and less as the engine speed increases and the load goes up. Cruising at 40 mph results in about 0.5psi or so of fuel pressure. 50 mph plus is about 0.25 psi to 0.5psi. Go up a hill and try to maintain speed and not slow down, and fuel pressure goes toward zero. When you cut throttle at speed and slow down, when engine vacuum is highest, the fuel pressure goes up to around 1 psi sometimes a little more of course. There is a side vacuum diaphram on the carb that limits the fuel in the carb and that probably keeps the manifold vacuum from going too high in this case.
The vacuum fuel pump as seen on the lower right side, mounted to the frame.
Here is more details about the vacuum fuel pump.
and of course my fuel pressure gauge testing setup mounted on the scooter, so I can check the fuel pressure.
Here is the engine vacuum pump fuel pressure at idle, about 1500 RPM. 1.25psi.
2007 Roketa Fiji 150 2007 Roketa MC54-250B 1992 Harley Sportster 1200 ----------------------------------- "Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming -- WOW--What a ride!!!"
Joined: Jan 2007 Gender: Male Posts: 8,657 Location: Grapevine Texas
Re: Electric fuel pump install /w pictures « Reply #11 on Nov 24, 2008, 7:08am »
I thought people would like to see what makes a rollover switch work. Basically as a safety feature on all the fuel injected motorcycles and scooters, they have a rollover switch to disable the engine or electric fuel pump in the event that the bike tips over, crashes or something. This example is one from a Hyabusa that someone totalled out a while back and it was parted out. Here is the complete switch unit, note the UPPER sign, that is the UP position so that the switch contacts are closed.
When you look inside, the rollover switch is quite simple. All the parts are gold plated to prevent corrosion from affecting its operation over time. In this photo the little doughnut makes contact between the metal strip and the metal loop. Which is the UP position.
In this photo we see that if the bike tips over the doughnut moves away from the metal strip and the contact point is broken. So then one wire goes to the hoop and the other wire goes to the metal strip. There is a small air gap in between the hoop and the strip, so that only if the doughnut touches both is the electrical circuit completed.
2007 Roketa Fiji 150 2007 Roketa MC54-250B 1992 Harley Sportster 1200 ----------------------------------- "Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming -- WOW--What a ride!!!"
Joined: Jan 2007 Gender: Male Posts: 8,657 Location: Grapevine Texas
Re: Electric fuel pump install /w pictures « Reply #12 on Nov 24, 2008, 7:10am »
This is the typical engine vacuum at idle with the engine warmed up good. If the engine is idling slower and or still cold, the vacuum readings are all over the place.
This is the engine vacuum while cruising at 30 to 35 mph, the faster you go the more the needle sticks to the zero end of the scale.
2007 Roketa Fiji 150 2007 Roketa MC54-250B 1992 Harley Sportster 1200 ----------------------------------- "Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming -- WOW--What a ride!!!"
scooterollie Great Big Guru Dawg DONOR/CHARTER MEMBER member is offline
Joined: Feb 2006 Gender: Male Posts: 4,261 Location: Eastern Panhandle of WV
Re: Electric fuel pump install /w pictures « Reply #13 on Nov 24, 2008, 9:18am »
Earl, Thanks for the roll over switch info. The Linhai 300 with electric pump is supposed to have one but I have never checked it out.
The on-going discussion about vacuum vs electric is interesting. Seems Linhai has replaced the electric pump with a vacuum pump for the '08 models. I, for one, still prefer the electric pump. There were a few issues with electric pump failures on the '06 Linhai 300s but no where as extensive as those of vacuum pump problems on all the scoots. My pump had some issues right after I got the scooter but then ran OK until earlier this year when it began to fail again. The O.E. replacement has performed faultlessly.
MC-54-250B, VOG 260, Rexhall Aerbus MH, Jeep Liberty , Wife and Cat
Joined: Jun 2008 Gender: Male Posts: 947 Location: Austin, Tx
Re: Electric fuel pump install /w pictures « Reply #14 on Nov 24, 2008, 10:27am »
Good job and great post, For a rollover switch you can use a mercuy switch, these are used for the automotive under the hood light, when the hood is raised the angle makes the mercury move to open or close electrical contact, they used to be dirt cheap. I guess they are still available, I used to get them from any auto parts store for after market installation on my vehicle. Also for the solenoid type pumps to work correctly the outlet end needs to be higher than the input. They do not suck fuel from the tank they can only push the fuel to the Carb, It must have something to do with how it is valved inside, it will wear out very prematurely if not done this way. I use these pumps on my Motorhome Generator which gets heavy use on trips. Great job to all for bringing this back up. I still need to do this on both my Scooters but they have no problem as of now, knock on wood.
Joined: Jan 2007 Gender: Male Posts: 8,657 Location: Grapevine Texas
Re: Electric fuel pump install /w pictures « Reply #15 on Nov 24, 2008, 10:55am »
The ultra-light aircraft crowd rebuild their vacuum fuel pumps twice a year. One doesn't want fuel issues flying around in a ultra-light aircraft. Our problem is that we don't have rebuild kits. Considering that they used tamper proof screws in assembling the vacuum pumps, they may not intend for them to be rebuildable.
I wonder if the Vacuum pumps Honda or Yamaha are using have rebuild kits or not. One problem is if there is a rebuild kit, then how much it costs. If expensive, then going the electric fuel pump route is better.
2007 Roketa Fiji 150 2007 Roketa MC54-250B 1992 Harley Sportster 1200 ----------------------------------- "Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming -- WOW--What a ride!!!"
Joined: Jan 2007 Gender: Male Posts: 8,657 Location: Grapevine Texas
Re: Electric fuel pump install /w pictures « Reply #16 on Nov 24, 2008, 11:06am »
One idea is to use a Kohler Vacuum Fuel pump. Most any small engine shop ought to be able to provide one or get one for you. http://www.jackssmallengines.com/fuel_kpump.cfm Purolator or Mr Gasket makes a special Kohler version electric pump that is rated from .5 to 2.0psi that would work good too. You probably do not need a fuel pressure regulator either. http://www.psep.biz/store/kohler_fuel_pumps.htm The problem is some stores are selling the electric fuel pump for $140 bucks or so. So it pays to shop around as some places had them for a lot less.
2007 Roketa Fiji 150 2007 Roketa MC54-250B 1992 Harley Sportster 1200 ----------------------------------- "Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming -- WOW--What a ride!!!"
Joined: Jan 2007 Gender: Male Posts: 8,657 Location: Grapevine Texas
Re: Electric fuel pump install /w pictures « Reply #18 on Nov 24, 2008, 5:18pm »
You do not want to use a mercury switch as a tilt or rollover switch due to its environmental hazards. The government even has Federal laws about it too. It is a major PITA for salvage yards and metal recycling facilities too. Then the mercury switch as depicted above can't handle the 1.5 amperes that a 12vdc fuel pump motor requires. That is one reason all the rollover switches are the simple U shaped rod with a metal ring as pictured above. But if you want to use a mercury switch and you have one that can handle the power requirements, go for it.
2007 Roketa Fiji 150 2007 Roketa MC54-250B 1992 Harley Sportster 1200 ----------------------------------- "Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming -- WOW--What a ride!!!"
Joined: Jan 2007 Gender: Male Posts: 8,657 Location: Grapevine Texas
Re: Electric fuel pump install /w pictures « Reply #19 on Nov 24, 2008, 5:26pm »
I thought, that maybe people would like to see what is inside a typical vacuum fuel pump, when you take it apart. Note that they used security torx screws.
A vacuum operated fuel pump, uses the intake manifold vacuum which varies a lot as the engine operates sucking in fuel/air and not sucking it in. So you get pressure pulses of as sort to operate a fuel pump. Inside the fuel pump, you have a rubber diaphragm and two one way valves. As the diaphragm moves moves up and down inside its chamber, it draws in a little fuel past a one way valve, and pushes fuel out past the second one way valve. The one way valves are very simple rubber valves shaped like a cork and tapered. The rubber valve moves back to let fuel through and is pushed back into its hole to block fuel from flowing back out the way it came in. There is a also a pressure relief valve that serves to keep the fuel pressure below some maximum so that it doesn't damage the fuel pump, should the outlet fuel flow become blocked or something.
A typical vacuum operated fuel pump
Fuel pump with the top removed exposing the fuel chambers and one way valves
Closeup of a one way valve
closeup of the pressure relief valve
fuel pump with the bottom cover removed exposing the diaphragm
2007 Roketa Fiji 150 2007 Roketa MC54-250B 1992 Harley Sportster 1200 ----------------------------------- "Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming -- WOW--What a ride!!!"
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