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AuthorTopic: EGR CRAP!!!!!!!!! (Read 2,509 times)
aramael
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EGR CRAP!!!!!!!!!
« Thread Started on Jun 4, 2008, 5:47pm »
So I finally get my scooter back on the road after installing an electric fuel pump, as most of you know these new scooters have that wonderful EGR crap installed for emissions. I have had nothing but problems with mine since the day I bought it, but..... I thought I'd give it another shot and try to do the right thing. I tore apart the EGR valve and cleaned it thinking maybe this is the problem and put it all back together rode it around for about 5 miles to see if it was going to give me issues and none. On the way to work today (22 mile one way) the rubber hose coming off of the head to the egr valve burned through and I sounded like a dirtbike. Luckily I had tapped that chrome tube coming from the head with a 5/16th tap and left the bolt I used to plug it in my toolbox under my seat. About 5min of off road maintenance and I was back on the road and only 5min late for work. I think I'll leave it this way now.... Sorry tree huggers, blame the Chinese.......

Happy scootin'
aramael
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Re: EGR CRAP!!!!!!!!!
« Reply #1 on Jun 4, 2008, 9:27pm »
Actually that is a PAIR system, not EGR. They bleed some air into the exhaust stream to burn any unburned fuel that gets through the engine. Sounds like you have a defective reed valve block. besides the rubber tube, which is a special high temprubber tube, you need a new reed valve block.
A lot of people are simply yanking off all the PAIR stuff anyway. Then they block off the PAIR intake port with a piece of metal cut and drilled to fit.
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Re: EGR CRAP!!!!!!!!!
« Reply #2 on Jun 4, 2008, 9:35pm »
Yeah, It's junk, and I'm through trying to make it work. I work in the environmental field so I was trying to do the ethical thing and make the system work, but I've had it.... I just tapped the chrome tube extending from the head, and put a 5/16" bolt in it and blocked off the vacuum line going to the reed block. Runs wonderful now. Just need to spend some time adjusting my carb after installing my electronic fuel pump and regulator and she should be good until something else brakes :)

I think my next investment will be a Buell Blast. 70mpg and nearly 500cc...........
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Re: EGR CRAP!!!!!!!!!
« Reply #3 on Jun 5, 2008, 3:45pm »
I had a look at mine on my tomos Nitro 150 today whilest I was tearing the WHOLE F-BOMB thing appart to finger out what was wrong ( which I still cant but I dont thread jack... )

It runs up through some rubber tubing and then through a vacuum op'd flow valve then out another larger rubber tube and into atmosphere through a sponge filter... Weird huh? Its an EGR that just dumps into atmosphere right under the seat, which explains why everything in that compartment smells so damned bad...
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Re: EGR CRAP!!!!!!!!!
« Reply #4 on Jun 5, 2008, 5:06pm »
It is a PAIR system, (Pulse Air Injection Reaction)
Actually it sucks air into the small canister, which is a simple air filter, that leads into a reed valve block, which leads to a high temperature tube to the exhaust port. The vacuum line controls a valve that opens it up so it can draw air in. On the exhaust stroke the reed valve blocks the hot exhaust gases and on the intake or scavenge cycle air is sucked into the exhaust port to help burn unburnt fuel that gets through.
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A EGR (Exhaust Gas recirculation),
actually bleeds some of the exhaust gases back into the intake manifold. So far they haven't put a EGR system on the scooters. A EGR uses a EGR valve thingie that lets the exhuast gases into the intake manifold or not. we used to have to change that EGR valve out for new ones a lot on the older car engines.

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Re: EGR CRAP!!!!!!!!!
« Reply #5 on Jun 5, 2008, 9:43pm »
So what happens if I block this thing off? Anything? Would a leak in this cause a no run condition? This system looks more like a smog pump then a Exhaust Gas Recirc...
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Re: EGR CRAP!!!!!!!!!
« Reply #6 on Jun 7, 2008, 8:54pm »
Nothing will happen if you block this system off except for possibly not being able to pass your vehicle inspection if they have them in your area. This system's absence will not affect the way your scooter runs, except for possibly making it run better. I have done away with mine, and have had no adverse side effects................yet :)
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Re: EGR CRAP!!!!!!!!!
« Reply #7 on Jun 7, 2008, 9:02pm »
<<<I think my next investment will be a Buell Blast. 70mpg and nearly 500cc........... >>>

If you think you have had problems with your Chinascoot, wait until you get one of thoses.
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Re: EGR CRAP!!!!!!!!!
« Reply #8 on Jun 7, 2008, 9:07pm »
So if I understand Earl's explanation, blocking off the PAIR system will likely overload the catalytic converter. If your scooter is running lean this is no issue, but if running normal or rich, it will overload the catalytic converter and cause possible malfunction.

Two questions come to my mind:
1) has anyone experienced such failure?
2) do we really have catalytic converter in our scooters?
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Re: EGR CRAP!!!!!!!!!
« Reply #9 on Jun 7, 2008, 9:07pm »

Jun 7, 2008, 9:02pm, motomech wrote:
<<<I think my next investment will be a Buell Blast. 70mpg and nearly 500cc........... >>>

If you think you have had problems with your Chinascoot, wait until you get one of thoses.


Do tell? I've heard nothing but good things about them? What experience have you had with them? Just curious........
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Re: EGR CRAP!!!!!!!!!
« Reply #10 on Jun 7, 2008, 9:11pm »

Jun 7, 2008, 9:07pm, dtwscooter wrote:
So if I understand Earl's explanation, blocking off the PAIR system will likely overload the catalytic converter. If your scooter is running lean this is no issue, but if running normal or rich, it will overload the catalytic converter and cause possible malfunction.

Two questions come to my mind:
1) has anyone experienced such failure?
2) do we really have catalytic converter in our scooters?


1) I have had my blocked off for sometime (I don't have a choice, my pair system would not work correctly for more that 15miles)

2) We don't have catalytic converters on scooters, and if I did I'd remove it. Unlike cars our scooters don't have O2 sensors either, or a computer for that matter so if we had catalytic converters it wouldn't affect how are scooters perform it would just be strictly for emissions control....
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Re: EGR CRAP!!!!!!!!!
« Reply #11 on Jun 7, 2008, 10:10pm »
1) you can block it off and remove the PAIR stuff if you like. it might be better to leave it on and block it off. In the future they my start checking to see if it is there or not. Some states like Arizona put the motorcycles through a emissions test, and it might help reduce emissions enough to pass. So you might need it then. So fabricate a small metal plate to go in between the tube flange and the engine port and bolt it back up. Then it doesn;t work, but it is still there, just in case.
2) No we don't have a catalytic converter on there yet. Maybe next year.
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Re: EGR CRAP!!!!!!!!!
« Reply #12 on Jun 8, 2008, 11:48am »
i read today that a bmw "pair" system was suspect in (r100??) some air heads (they run lean for emissions and run hot anyway), in that the pulsed air into the exhaust valve area caused them to overheat the exhaust valve and seat causing warping. so just maybe causing less burning in the exhaust area will cause our scooters to run a little cooler maybe. i like the idea of cooler exhaust valves. only reason i can find to disable the system.

when on the negative pressure in the muffler (coasting down hill, decellerating) the pulse system allows fresh air in the exhaust area (from canister) causing more buning of exhaust gasses more burning means more heat.
on flat out the system (vacuum is zero shutting the vacuum valve on top of the canister shutting the system down) is supposed to shut off allowing no air, so flat out no effect is seen with the system installed.

with the pulsed air disabled you get a little more scavenging of exhaust gasses just a little.

performance is minimal or not existant with our small engines, but cooler exhaust area is good in my opinion, so is cleaner air too.

yarddog.


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Re: EGR CRAP!!!!!!!!!
« Reply #13 on Oct 15, 2008, 7:34pm »
I am currently working on getting my exhaust stud removed from my cylinder head. If it breaks, I may potentially have to buy a new cylinder head. I figure I better start the research now. Oregon Vintage has 2 types of cylinder heads, 1 with this EGR bit, and 1 without. I live in CA where our scoots have to be CARB certified. Is anyone familiar with which one of these heads I would need should the exhaust stud indeed break off? They look identical in the pictures except for the fact that one says "EGR" and the other says "Non-EGR." Thanks.

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Re: EGR CRAP!!!!!!!!!
« Reply #14 on Oct 16, 2008, 8:06am »

Oct 15, 2008, 7:34pm, halosfan06 wrote:
I am currently working on getting my exhaust stud removed from my cylinder head. If it breaks, I may potentially have to buy a new cylinder head. I figure I better start the research now. Oregon Vintage has 2 types of cylinder heads, 1 with this EGR bit, and 1 without. I live in CA where our scoots have to be CARB certified. Is anyone familiar with which one of these heads I would need should the exhaust stud indeed break off? They look identical in the pictures except for the fact that one says "EGR" and the other says "Non-EGR." Thanks.

Stewy


If you look closely at the pictures at oregonvintage.com in the lower right hand corner of the picture you can see what looks like a tubular airway cast into the head leading to a flange with three bolt holes on the EGR model.
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Re: EGR CRAP!!!!!!!!!
« Reply #15 on Nov 19, 2010, 7:16pm »
I have always had a hard time starting my scooter in the morning but it starts up fine for the rest of the day. Could a defective PAIR system be the culprit?
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Re: EGR CRAP!!!!!!!!!
« Reply #16 on Nov 19, 2010, 7:38pm »
^^^^^Nope.
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Re: EGR CRAP!!!!!!!!!
« Reply #17 on Nov 19, 2010, 7:40pm »
You may find more acid buildup in your engine oil and reduce oil life with it fully disabled. Oil would get pretty nasty before they added ways to better scavange exhaust from crankcases.
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Re: EGR CRAP!!!!!!!!!
« Reply #18 on Nov 19, 2010, 7:52pm »
^^^^^I don't get that at all....explain please. This is a PAIR system, not an EGR system.
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Re: EGR CRAP!!!!!!!!!
« Reply #19 on Sept 27, 2012, 4:46pm »
i doubt it would cause any type of engine problems removing it. and it is def not a egr system i dont think they need something that reduces emissions that much on a scooter. and rocky if it was a egr removing it ( correctly) would cause the oil to be less filthy and potentially last longer. i have not had a egr system on my truck in 80000 miles and it was one of the best things i did to it
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Re: EGR CRAP!!!!!!!!!
« Reply #20 on Sept 28, 2012, 5:46am »
My PAIR failed at 500 Chinameters. It caused massive backfiring and burned out my stock exhaust.

I removed it and blocked the passage then replaced the exhaust. Bike runs excellent now with no problems.

I highly doubt the PAIR had anything to do with acidification of oil, but I run a no-return catch can, specifically to avoid acidification of oil.
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Re: EGR CRAP!!!!!!!!!
« Reply #21 on Sept 28, 2012, 3:20pm »

Jun 4, 2008, 9:35pm, aramael wrote:
Yeah, It's junk, and I'm through trying to make it work. I work in the environmental field so I was trying to do the ethical thing and make the system work, but I've had it.... I just tapped the chrome tube extending from the head, and put a 5/16" bolt in it and blocked off the vacuum line going to the reed block. Runs wonderful now. Just need to spend some time adjusting my carb after installing my electronic fuel pump and regulator and she should be good until something else brakes :)

I think my next investment will be a Buell Blast. 70mpg and nearly 500cc...........



Pulled my PAIR system off before my scooter was started for the first time, while doing PDI. 20 fill-ups later, (1659.7 miles and 22.231 gallons burned) I've averaged 74.65 MPG. If that isn't doing enough for the tree huggers among us, and the environment...guess I'll go back to driving my Silverado 4x4 to Micky D's for my morning coffee...scoot safely...Bob

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