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Post by Kiwiscoot on Oct 28, 2009 21:42:38 GMT -5
I see from my research that most folks had to go lighter than the stock rollers when they went to Dr Pulley sliders. How much lighter would be a good ball park?? 1 gram lighter or two gram lighter? or should I get a range, say stock weight, 1 gram lighter and 2 gram lighter? It takes a while for things to get here to the south island of New Zealand., but then I don't want to be wasting money either on stuff I won't need. My aim have the same acceleration from stand-still, but to drop the rev's at 70mph cruising by 250 rpm. Higher top speed will be good too for passing vehicles.
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Post by leo on Oct 28, 2009 22:23:30 GMT -5
from what i've read on sliders 2 grams would be about right.
if you use 19 gram rollers then get 17 gram sliders.
personally i haven't tried sliders so i don't really know.
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Post by JR on Oct 29, 2009 9:56:07 GMT -5
Wait a minute, wait a minute, hold the bus!!! OK first the rule of thumb is for every gram of weight you reduce your rollers/sliders you increase the RPM's and can drop the top end. Now the general rule is 500 RPM increase for every gram reduced on rollers and about 350 rpm for sliders. The opposite occurs when you increase the rollers/sliders as in increase the weight drop the RPM's add top end but keeping the same take off not too likely will lose a tad there! I just put 12 gram sliders in mama's 250A yesterday as I am doing some winter time Pm on all my scooters! It had 14 gram rollers in it to start with. I did this for better pulling power on the hills we ride in. Had some sunshine yesterday and after doing this and cleaning the belt, etc took her for a ride! She'll do 75 MPH at 6900 RPM, now that's sweet! Also you need to remember that sliders push the variator out a tad farther which even if you go apples for apples on the weight you'll probably gain a tad on the top end; vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&videoid=31718625So with all that said if you only want a 250 RPM reduction I would only go to one gram HEAVIER on the sliders as in 18g. I believe if you go two grams you will really hurt the take off! My .02 worth! JRR |
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Post by Kiwiscoot on Oct 29, 2009 19:45:33 GMT -5
Hi jrryan - thanks for your good advice. Are they expensive? (looks like they are USD8.60 - USD11 - which seems very expensive as it is times 6 rollers) Now where do you get your sliders from? I searched google but can't come up with people that have 20X18g sliders for the SYM Citycom 300i. Here in New Zealand's south island we are at the back door of the world (lots of times some idiot leaves the door open too - cold wind blown in from the antarctic then - "Damn Close that door - we want summer now!!"  )) which makes it quite hard to get performance parts for scooters. |
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Post by indy50 on Oct 29, 2009 22:37:28 GMT -5
My scales dont lie
A 12g slider weighs as much as a 12g roller
The difference is.... imeo sliders are smoother throughout the windup + I think they spread your vari apart a tad further, by design
allowing belt to ride a bit higher
Kiwi... sliders cost about 25-30 a set USD + shipping
I use rollers to get it right then when I have my desired combo.... order my sliders
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Post by JR on Oct 29, 2009 22:42:00 GMT -5
Hey Kiwi what is the size for that scooter? On my 250B with the linhai clone they are 20 X 12 X ??Gram. The linhai uses 8 roller/sliders instead of 6 like on a lot of scooters but one can buy sets of sliders in any number. The GY-6 uses 18 X 14 X ??gram.
So with that said are you saying your OEM rollers ar 20 X 18 X ??gram? Or are you saying the rollers are 20 X ?? X 18gram?
Got to know and then we'll fine ya some! JRR
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Post by indy50 on Oct 29, 2009 22:48:00 GMT -5
Heck I was talkin a 150, but the same principle otta apply
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Post by JR on Oct 30, 2009 8:02:15 GMT -5
Heck I was talking a 150, but the same principle otta apply It does, but some of the sliders can be harder to find, they are very common for the 150's but not so common for other scooters, in fact looking at the ATV's will help find the ones you need for a larger scooter sometimes! You're also right in the fact that 12 g roller = 12g slider but the RPM difference is a little different just by the way the sliders function versus the rollers.  JRR |
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Post by leo on Oct 30, 2009 8:46:29 GMT -5
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Post by JR on Oct 30, 2009 10:56:43 GMT -5
Yea I guess so for the 250 CF Moto upgrade and with a Dr. Pulley variator a totally different animal! Now let's see since Kiwi asked about sliders for his stock OEM variator on a 300 Sym that changes the varible entirely! Won't argue with their assessment at all and since you made another statement earlier as in I haven't tried them and wouldn't know it leaves you just in that position as in not knowing! Now myself I've tried the sliders in the 250 linhai, just as I said I put 12g sliders in one of my 250's about a year ago and the other one just two days ago so yea I know! Know how to read a tach and see the difference in the Rpm's of both sliders and rollers and know what will give more torque for pulling hills, and what is right for top end! Oh yea know how they work in the GY-6 too! Been there done it! Other variables to figure are riding habits, altitude, belt length and such. Yes I know! LOL BTW one doesn't always need to believe what they read without actually trying them after all even though Dr. Pulley sliders are nice, on their website, well let's just say tend to be sale men too! Don't have a sales pitch then don't sell product! LOL Another funny thing about that website well it was go karts, didn't see anything listed that said the article was written by Dr. Pulley! If ya noticed they also recommended a clutch torque spring with this kit and that's also just another variable like I said and Uh, Kiwi I think all he said was he simply wanted about a 250 RPM change and to me he wants it just simple. Hey Kiwi looking for some sliders let me know on your size of rollers as one thing I don't know is what is in this scooter! JRR |
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Post by madcollie on Oct 30, 2009 11:20:35 GMT -5
"Hey Kiwi looking for some sliders let me know on your size of rollers as one thing I don't know is what is in this scooter! JRR" Darn it, just when I thought you did know just about everything.  JR, don't go gettin your blood up at your age. Is it because your not working in the garden? If I want to put sliders in mine what would you suggest? M/C |
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Post by JR on Oct 30, 2009 11:39:13 GMT -5
"Hey Kiwi looking for some sliders let me know on your size of rollers as one thing I don't know is what is in this scooter! JRR" Darn it, just when I thought you did know just about everything. JR, don't go gettin your blood up at your age. Is it because your not working in the garden? If I want to put sliders in mine what would you suggest? M/C As Phaze would say hahahahahahahahahahahahah and haha! LOL Well let's start asking them old questions heck I think I'm going to change my handle to Dear Abbey!! LOL LOL Hey ya know that ain't bad at all Dear JR!! LOL LOL And don't even mention the garden, as I really think that Noah's Ark might just show up in Arkansas any minute!! If it does then I riding one of my scooters on board! LOL OK on your question what are you looking for? What size and weight is in your scooter presently? Want better hill climbing or maybe a RPM decrease like Kiwi? Ya got to let Dear JR know these kind of things!! I'm getting old and the old ESP just ain't a working like it used to! LOL The new Dear JR |
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Post by harrywr2 on Oct 30, 2009 12:32:38 GMT -5
Are they expensive? (looks like they are USD8.60 - USD11 - which seems very expensive as it is times 6 rollers) Now where do you get your sliders from? Try autotech355 on ebay. Dr Pulley sliders are made in Taiwan and he's in Taiwan which is in your neck of the woods. If he doesn't have them listed email. motors.shop.ebay.com/autotech355/m.htmlThe price quoted for rollers is normally for a full set. |
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Post by JR on Oct 30, 2009 13:13:07 GMT -5
Good listing Harry and I looked at all the sliders Carlos had listed but again am confused as to what Kiwi needs in size haven't seen any 20 X 18 listed yet??? I've also bought the sliders with this guy and he handles a lot of them; absolutelyscooters.net/ |
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Post by Kiwiscoot on Nov 1, 2009 3:42:55 GMT -5
Harrywr2 & jrryan - thanks for the input. Unfortunately the service manual does not give the width, so at the stage all I know is they are 22 X ?? X 18g and there are 6 of them. I'll have to open the variator and measure the things this week.
Went for a 600km trip over the two passes thro the Southern Alps yesterday and I think if the sliders push the belt out further, then a standard weight set of sliders will do the job. The RPM is about 6250 - 6500 @ 110 kph speedo (99 kph true) and about 7000 @ 120 kph speedo (108 kph true). The scoot has heaps of get up and go to 120 kph on the speedo, but then it seems to get out of breath. Peak HP is at 7000 rpm and max torque at 5500 rpm. Our speed limit is 100 kph, which means overtaking at 120 kph(speedo) is a tad slow and needs planning. If I could get 125kph on the speedo at 7000 rpm overtaking will be improved. I only want a tad without losing the good pulling power (at 110 kph speedo) it has because we have lots of mountains and get a lot of strong wind here. I think the optimum rpm is somewhere between the max torque and the max HP range.
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Post by JR on Nov 1, 2009 7:58:21 GMT -5
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Post by Kiwiscoot on Nov 8, 2009 0:23:03 GMT -5
Well after another 630km trip yesterday I really think a tad more top end will be good.I was running with the big boys yesterday. Thro the Lewis Pass with a friend's brand new BMW R1200GS and then back from Kaikoura up the Hundelees in the company of what looked like a BMW R1100 tourer. Now I was surprised that both these could not leave me behind in the twisties as the speed was about 70kph to 90kph, which puts the Citycom's engine around 6000rpm right on the peak torque and 120kph is at 7000rpm, right at max HP rpm. All this of course speedo speeds. What I need is a drop of about 250 - 350 rpm at these speeds to give me a tad more top end for passing trucks. The scoot was really very impressive at 6500 rpm at 110kph/70mph in mountains and with strong wind.
JRR - here is the vital statistics after I opened the CVT-
25mm OD X 22 width X 18g. I measured the variator faces too after marking them (using the JRR method ;D ;D) and going for a high speed run. The belt run to 4mm of the outer edge on the inner half of the variator. The belt run to 3mm of the outer edge of the outer half of the variator. Think I could utilise another 2mm there??
No wear what so ever on those rollers after 12000kms with more than half in the city stop/go. The graphite seems to do a perfect job.
anyway until next time - have fun
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Post by JR on Nov 8, 2009 7:59:42 GMT -5
OK Now we can cook this chicken as we now know the size of the chicken so we can get the right pot! OH I forgot we're working a a scooter, lost myself for a moment on the chicken! LOL All right 25 X 22 X 18g and we want a tad of top end and a 250 to 350 RPM reduction: OK the general rule of thumb with rollers is a 500 rpm change in rpms depending on the weight as in heavier = RPM drop X 500rpm and lighter = increase X 500 rpm. On the slider weights the same is true except in my dealings with them the change is around 350 RPM either way. So with that said here is some different possibilities; If you were to just simply change your current 18g rollers to 18g sliders you should get a appx. RPM decrease of 150 RPM not much but you don't want much and just by the design of the slider itself versus the roller you should gain a tad on the top end. Again watch the video I posted earlier. Now you could go to 19 gram sliders and the rpm difference should drop about 350 rpm and again gain some top end too. Also here is another thought and it's this, you could purchase 18g and 19g sliders and use a half and half mix and then you would be at 18.5 gram which should give you the desired 250 rpm reduction you want and the tad of top end. Now of course as you said you live a loooooong way off so price and shipping will be a consideration and if you were to decide to get both then a one time all at once ship would certainly be to your advantage. So let's see if we can find a few folks that can help you! Here's some guys who are SD forum members and they do handle sliders; absolutelyscooters.net/www.buggypartsnw.com/stores.ebay.com/Autotech355-Performance-Parts__W0QQ_fsubZ14230596Now as you can see Carlos with Autotech on Ebay is out to the 14th to a show in Italy and he does give discounts to Scootdawg members. I have bought things from all these guys and they treat dawgs right! Other source possibilities; www.martinracingdealer.com/CategoryProductList.jsp?cat=Parts+by+Type%3ADr+Pulley+Sliders&offset=180www.whidbeyparts.com/CategoryProductList.jsp?cat=Parts+by+Brand+of+Scooter:Kymco+Scooters:Xciting+500ccwww.monsterscooterparts.com/25x22-sliding-roller-weights.htmlI will say this, I love my slider weights and will never go back to rollers, they shift smooth and in my scooter just do better in my riding conditions. One last thought about the extra 4mm of variator ya have left? What size is your belt? If it has a cousin that's a tad longer then that can help a little on top end, not much but a tad. For instance my Bali came with a 835-20-30 belt and I now along with my prodigy variator run a 842-20-30 belt. Again just a thought. Now one last thing to remember is make sure ya get them in right. Read this last post on a fellow dawg who was unhappy with the change he made to 12g sliders on his linhai and discovered why after he pulled it apart to make another change; scootdawg.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=200cc&action=display&thread=27022It was great for him to share this story so all other folks can learn from it and it can happen to anyone so pay attention! LOL JRR |
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Post by Kiwiscoot on Nov 9, 2009 4:46:46 GMT -5
JRR - you ah da mannn!!! thanks a million. I may wait until Carlos is back as Taiwan is not that far from here. I'll probably go fo r the 18gr and the 19gr ones and play a bit. keep the black side down and the bright smile up!!  |
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Post by JR on Nov 9, 2009 11:20:23 GMT -5
Will do! JRR
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Post by fljohnboy on Nov 9, 2009 11:27:10 GMT -5
What do these numbers mean "25 X 22 X 18", I know the 18 is gram weight but what is the 25x22?
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Post by Kiwiscoot on Nov 9, 2009 14:34:04 GMT -5
25mm Outside diameter X 22mm wide. Hope that helps
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Post by Kiwiscoot on Nov 26, 2009 23:16:03 GMT -5
what a pain, Carlos at Autotech355 Ebay does not have those 25mmx22mmx18g sliders. Tomorrow I'll talk to the local scooter guys and see what they can sort out. They could get sliders for a 250 Vespa for NZD70 apparently.
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Post by JR on Nov 27, 2009 10:50:20 GMT -5
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Post by Kiwiscoot on Nov 29, 2009 16:10:06 GMT -5
thanks JR - buggypartsnw and whidbeyparts came back to me. Carlos from eBay came back too, but he want me to let him know how many sets as he has to order them as a special order. Strange as it seems the Kymco Xciting 250 and 500i and 250cc bugies take the same rollers. mind you -  - Minister of Finance, Domestic and All other Affairs told me only next year  Guess it's easier to ask forgiveness than permission   whisper "where's that credit card??" |
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Post by JR on Nov 29, 2009 20:26:46 GMT -5
Hmmmmmmmm let's see; Order slider weights without saying anything to better half = 3 nights on couch = 12 roses = forgiveness!!  White lie = But Honey they had them marked down 25% = box of chocolates to go with roses!! JRR ;D |
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Post by Kiwiscoot on Nov 29, 2009 23:01:18 GMT -5
JR - I'll have to plan that one carefully and the timing is critical. If you don't hear from me on the forum again you will know that I did not survive it.
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Post by Kiwiscoot on Dec 3, 2009 21:48:25 GMT -5
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Post by JR on Dec 3, 2009 22:25:26 GMT -5
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Post by ♣Luke♣ on Dec 3, 2009 23:41:53 GMT -5
jr, correct me if i'm wrong ,but i tried to click on all the site that you post, they are all the same, all singing christmas carols. is that only an introduction or that is what the site is all about?(christmas carols???) ..well anyway advance merry christmas 2u.
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)) which makes it quite hard to get performance parts for scooters.
JRR
- Minister of Finance, Domestic and All other Affairs told me only next year 
Guess it's easier to ask forgiveness than permission 
whisper "where's that credit card??" 
