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Post by mainepeace on Jun 17, 2012 1:06:38 GMT -5
This is a really odd problem that I would like to have some suggestions on. I haven't really dived into solving it yet, but I have thought alot about what it could be and can't come up with an idea.
Pinky II just got a new 63cc kit since the rings went out last fall. Everything installed fine and she runs GREAT.
Cold start, first time she is started for the day. Doesn't matter if it's cold or warm out. Just that it is the FIRST START for the day.
Crank her and she keeps spinning but won't start with the electric start. You can crank on her for minutes and she won't start. She will start on the first KICKSTART, every time. I've tried kickstarting some mornings before doing the electric start and she starts right up. I've tried running down the battery some mornings and it won't start until the kickstart.
After she has warmed up, maybe running 1-2 minutes you can shut her off and she will start with the electric start. She will start all day long after that with the electric start. Even after sitting for hours.
The ONLY issue is the VERY FIRST START.
I thought it was a thermal issue, but then why would she start with the electric start later in the day after sitting for up to 4 hours and become stone cold?
I have not started ripping apart the harness looking for an intermittent connection, nor have I started swapping anything. As long as I start her with the kick start the first time she's good for a full day's renting.
I will eventually figure this out and will post the solution.
I will give a free CDI to whomever first posts the correct solution. (No cheating and posting every possible idea under the sun trying to cover your bases).
Greg
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Post by h3nry on Jun 17, 2012 2:45:51 GMT -5
The starter is spinning too slow.
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Post by skuttadawg on Jun 17, 2012 3:18:02 GMT -5
Does the battery have a full amount of water in the cells if its a wet type ? How does the terminal connections like ? If the battery is weak or old it may not be able to store and release enough amps to start it up . How does the teeth on the starter bendix look ? Like if worn down . Does it sound like its spinning the engine fast enough to start ? A weak battery will be slower . Have you tried jumping it off from another battery or jump start box ? I love the jump starting boxes which are a battery with built on cables and a light . Some of the bigger ones also have a mini air compressor . These have saved me from bad battery no starts in the winter for me and stranded motorists I have helped .
Do they brake lights come on when ether brake lever is pulled in ? Could be a weak connection in the switch circuit . Try using the front brake lever when starting and see if it is the same or not
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Post by gatekeeper on Jun 17, 2012 3:58:13 GMT -5
Had a similar issue with my 50cc. After checking things out discovered it had a noticeably weaker spark while using the electric starter as opposed to using the kick starter. After changing the coil it starts with the electric starter every time now.
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Post by meitianman on Jun 17, 2012 11:15:09 GMT -5
id really be looking at the battery, it might not be holding enough cca for some reason and the current draw from the starter is causing a weak spark issue. that or as above the start itself is the issue where its either spinning to slow or has a internal short causing to draw a unusually high amount of amps.
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Post by larry001964 on Jun 17, 2012 14:31:04 GMT -5
Have you done a compression test Greg?
And what weight oil you have in it? I too think its turning over just a little bit too slow. Id take a compression test im guessing it's just a little high. 192 psi or so. if so i would consider lowering your oil weight 5w from what your using now. At least until the break in period is done.
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Post by millsc on Jun 17, 2012 15:32:26 GMT -5
My project 100 dollar scooter did the same thing i put a different battery in it and works everytime
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Post by justbuggin on Jun 17, 2012 15:50:54 GMT -5
check the connectors at the battery mine had a similar problem and the factory crimp wire connectors cut though the wire
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Post by mainepeace on Jun 17, 2012 20:04:05 GMT -5
Just to mention, it's a brand new battery, fully charged. The starter spins normally at normal speeds. There is no difference in the starter turnover speed when first started vs. when started after kick started.
The compression feels great (but not too much) when pushing the kickstarter with my hand. I haven't tested it.
It was rented out yesterday for 3 hours again with NO issues after I did the initial kick-start.
I have the feeling Gatekeeper has the right idea about the coil. I'll swap it out tomorrow and see if that does it.
I do appreciate the replies.
Greg
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Post by headonz on Jun 17, 2012 21:31:36 GMT -5
My scooter started doing the very same thing some time back.Tried everything I could think of and just gave up and just used the kick starter.But wait................
Just resonantly I had a no start issue after a ride in the rain so one of the things I did was pull apart every electrical connection and inspect,wire brush where I could and WD40'd the lot.And what do you know she starts every time on the starter.First start ,last start ,all good.
Then I added a 82cc bbk and I'm back to the kick starter !
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Post by dude on Jun 17, 2012 22:09:26 GMT -5
Maybe in the safety switch. (brake lever) You dont need it to kick start. Try a looser or tighter vavle adjustment.
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Post by mainepeace on Jun 18, 2012 11:32:50 GMT -5
I solved the issue. I won't say whether it was easy or hard. You guys are close, but I'll let you know when you get it right.
First one to get it right gets a new CDI.
Greg
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Post by waterjunk on Jun 18, 2012 12:24:29 GMT -5
I would suggest either the starter spinning backwards, which is more common then i thought and has thrown me off a few times, most likely not on a 50cc since its got that bendix.
Most likely guess for me will be your Starter button assembly, Seems as though triggering your starter is also grounding out your CDI kill switch circuit. That or those little male/female connectors with the rubber sleeves are backed off on the frame.
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Post by larry001964 on Jun 18, 2012 12:50:10 GMT -5
Loose coil wire or one of the stator or pickup wires loose?
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Post by Bintelli - Jason on Jun 18, 2012 14:34:21 GMT -5
Hello,
I have seen this on multiple units. 9/10 times it is a weak ignition. Basically, when using the electric start the engine isn't turning over fast enough to make up for the weak ignition. You will find kick starting the engine works every time, with anywhere from intermittent to complete failure of the electric start.
I have seen cases where just as you describe, the first kick start is all that is needed, and I have seen other cases where regardless of the temperature of the engine and time of last start, it will not work. I would recommend checking the CDI first, than ignition coil.
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Post by buford1488 on Jun 18, 2012 15:08:38 GMT -5
something is grounding out the spark. like the BUTTON.
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Post by mainepeace on Jun 18, 2012 17:53:30 GMT -5
We have a winner!
Jason got it right with the CDI! I don't think he needs one, but I'm happy to send it out as a trophy! (a NEW one and not the broken one LOL)
I tried swapping the coil, spark plug, and rechecking the electrical connections. I checked the spark and there was a STRONGER spark with the electric starter than with the kick.
My guess is that it is somehow a thermal issue. The CDI when stone cold has some problem with the ignition timing. After it warms up a bit, generally after only 1-2 minutes or running, connections within the CDI either close or open up, or a resistor gains resistance, or who knows what, and it works properly.
Kudos to Jason!
Greg
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Post by Bintelli - Justin on Jun 18, 2012 18:31:12 GMT -5
Nice work Jason! Greg, we'll let you keep the cdi... but sure would love to sign up our first Maine dealer  |
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Post by millsc on Jun 18, 2012 20:29:10 GMT -5
jason is a good addition to the forum hes given me some good info knows his stuff
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Post by larry001964 on Jun 18, 2012 20:35:16 GMT -5
Hummmm that's interesting, I was always under the impression either a CDI worked or it didn't.. Learn something new every day...
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Post by k1llsw1tch on Jun 19, 2012 3:16:53 GMT -5
Yea that's what happened to my scooter it wouldn't start with the electric start, then i switched my CDI to the stock and it started my blue racing cdi burnt out on me 2 weeks after i got it -.-
im so pissed i lost 24.99 on the damn cdi...
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Post by Bintelli - Jason on Jun 19, 2012 12:08:18 GMT -5
Glad you got it back up and running Greg!
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Post by mainepeace on Jun 19, 2012 19:40:54 GMT -5
Pinky II is off to another full day of renting tomorrow. Thanks for the feedback guys.
Greg
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Post by burnrubber on Jun 19, 2012 20:35:24 GMT -5
Damn!!! I Was white knuckling just reading this post!!!!LOL!!! Put on some more of these trouble shooters, I need a new high performance exaust system! LOL!!!
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Post by larry001964 on Jun 19, 2012 20:51:33 GMT -5
Personally I didn't care about the CDI,
This was an Interesting one, and I definitely learned something new.. :-) Thanks for sharing Greg
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